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      "body": "Well your first point in response doesn't negate or otherwise stand in opposition to my first point so ill begin my reply at your second point.\n\n>Private vs personal property. They can have all the resources they want, but having resources does not mean they deserve what other people produce.\n>to attack this statement on its own: 'Do you fundamentally reject the notions that an individual is entitled to the fruits of his labor and that one is entitled to engage in voluntary transactions?\"\n>Wage labor is not volentary, the only choice the workers have is what slave owner to choose.\n>The fruit of a workers labor is what they produce, not what others produce on something they control through violence.\n\nFirstly, you have not defined private property, you defined personal property and one could assume by private property you mean private ownership of the means of production. I just want to make sure I understand the distinction you are trying to make here.\n\nSecondly, no one said having resources entitles one to another man's labor, simply that the two may be voluntarily exchanged; you are not taking the argument head on. Let me spell it out a little clearer and add more detail. \nThere are two scenarios I present whereby an individual can take ownership of a machine to demonstrate that private ownership of the machine is just. He could build the machine himself.  The machine is then the fruit of his labor and is therefor his property. Alternatively he could enter into a voluntary transaction with the machine's creator and thereby be granted property rights over the machine. \nYou may argue that this voluntary exchange is involuntary, but unless one of the two is coercing the other there is no use of force and both individuals are free to pursue their own interests. You can not claim that one is inherently using violence in claiming the means of production, because i just presented you two perfectly plausible means by which one could build or purchase a machine to acquire ownership in a just and nonviolent manner. You may claim that holding private property is inherently violent, but the argument you present does not hold as i will explain in my response to your fourth section (where you mention the hospital children). This machine being his, he is free to pay others to use his machine and he is\n\nThirdly,  of course wage labor is voluntary. You negotiate a wage and you are free to decide whether your labor is being valued properly and then you CHOOSE to either accept the wage, seek other employers, or accumulate resources yourself by other means. No one is placing a gun to your head and ordering you out to work for them. Again you seem to be placing the worker in this false dichotomy between accepting  dirt pay or death, but this is simply not the case. Saying that workers only have a choice in which master to serve might sound cool and edgy, but the burden of proof is on you to show that humans can not live without accepting wage labor in a capitalist society.\n\n>I said this was the government.\n\nYou said, and this is what I was referring to;\n>All public law today is based on the principles of a “monopoly on violence”. A monopoly on violence. The social relations of the worker to the controller cannot exist without this. There is no basis for control without a monopoly of violence, so private property cannot exist without it.\n\nThis is the issue which i was addressing, you precisely made the claim that the relations between the worker and the owner can not exist without a monopoly of force and then, in a later statement, use this fact to make a half assed argument that this equates private property to offensive violence. The failing of this argument can be seen in the following discussion.\n\n>if both me and the children in a hospital respected my right to bomb them with white phosphorus on moral principle there is no need for a monopoly of force.\n\nThis analogy seems like emotional appeal and does not seem well thought out. You originally equate private property with  violence by stating that private property can only be maintained through violence and then brush the fact that i presented an alternate nonviolent means by which private property can be maintained through a mutual agreement on the morality of property rights. Now i understand that you would likely argue against this by  claiming that holding private property is a violent act, however the only support for this argument which you have presented for the violence of private property is the very same one which i address by proposing an alternate means by which property can be maintained. This is precisely where your analogy breaks down. In your analogy you equate an action which is fundamentally violent with one which is only tangentially linked to violence by an argument you make which does not hold.\n\n\nThis post is pretty long so I wont address the other comments you make because I think these issues are really the core of our fundamental disagreement and I think if we address them directly with no more shiftiness we can find some common ground.",
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      "body": "On point one: The fact of the matter is that he’s referring to the capitalist class that owns the Means of Production (MOP). As he points it out, five wealthy individuals “own more wealth than the bottom half of the population of the world.” This statement is not a meaningless factoid but a statement of our reality as it is today, the concentration of capital. These five people managed to accumulate capital and PRIVATE property into their hands while weeding out competition. This was bound to happen when selfish greed, generated by the system and is not INNATE in humans, kicks in to perserve the individual at their peak and kill off any potential threat. Competition to a single capitalist in the long run makes no sense since it will harm more than help them.\n\nOn point two: First of all, rarely, if ever, do most capitalists ever expand labor into making a machine. Nonetheless, most inherit it from their ancestors, and their ancestors either enclosed farming lands to farming units or worked with the government to kill of the guilds in the city already producing the commodity at hand. What you are thinking of is a petit-bourgeois (“small” capitalist) and we rarely have any of those today. \nEven then, does the owner work exponentially harder than his worker? The answer is no, for if the capitalist could we wouldn’t need jobs in the first place. Moreso, without the worker, the capitalist would go out of business as they have no one to operate the MOP. The worker is lifeline, the Force of Production, for the MOP and the capitalist, the second they revolt is the second you make concessions to not lose it all.\nTruly in the worker’s case is it hard to survive in this world since ‘tis nye-on impossible for them to acquire the MOP without loosing an arm and a leg. And, nonetheless, to even have any leverage as an individual worker on the table with capitalist who has many other people waiting to take their spot eargerly for less. Their two choices are death and wage-labor. The former is meaningless since ‘tis a dead-end that extends not the person’s life and the latter an alienated life where someone produces something only to get a check to continue on struggling.\n\nOn point three: I refer to Anarchyhasnogod’s points down below. I think he covered it well enough. Plus some of my response in point two can easily bleed into this point here.\n\nOn point four: Again I refer you to read Anarchy’s points, but this time I have something to say. \nThe monopoly of force is first and foremost guarneteed by the state and protects the ruling class, that being the capitalist class. The state protects the ruling class since the ruling class controls the functions of the state in a way that gurantees their survival and surpresses the working class in a way that their class consciousness is murky and a revolt would be a net-negative. Also if they were equal in fighting power, then Anarchy’s points would still remain.\n\nOn point five: Again you conflate capitalists with petit-bourgeoisie (“small” capitalists if you had forgotten already). The workers’ only bargaining chip is their labor power, to which capitalist has capital and MOP to threaten back with. (Again the choices are death or wage-labor for the worker, the real choice being the latter since that continues their existence and won’t starve or die that easily.) Also the capitalist has to exploit the worker of their surplus value, value created that is more than socially necessary to produce a commodity. Otherwise, they cannot get any profits nor can they continue to live on in the market economy where time is of the essence.",
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      "body": "@@ -397,8 +397,72 @@\n markets?\n+%0A%0A%0A%0A%0Ato me it seems like you missed the entire point of the post\n",
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      "body": "@@ -267,16 +267,52 @@\n r reason\n+, like all of the ones I pointed out\n . There \n",
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      "body": "@@ -105,16 +105,58 @@\n n growth\n+ and takes resources away from the workers\n . If thi\n",
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      "body": "To add onto my point: Revolutions in other countries have shown that private property actually slows down growth. If this is true, and the workers know it, then any transaction must not be voluntary and must be for some other reason. There is no reason the workers would settle for less, isn't that the whole point of markets?",
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      "body": ">\"your word choice in referring to the owners of the means of production as a group of entities, in my view, masks the fact that ownership of the means of production is more fluid. Despite the fact that many wealthy families may hold their wealth, there is an ever present circulation of people in and out of the working class.\"\n\n\n5 people own more wealth than the bottom half of the population of the world \n\n\n\n>Additionally you ignore the fact that the owners of the machines either produced or otherwise expended valuable resources to establish or obtain them. This means that the man who created the machine is rightfully the owner of the machine or that he engaged in a voluntary transaction to exchange his property for resources. Do you fundamentally reject the notions that an individual is entitled to the fruits of his labor and that one is entitled to engage in voluntary transactions? If so then you are embracing a fundamentally coercive economic system\n\n\n\nPrivate vs personal property. They can have all the resources they want, but having resources does not mean they deserve what other people produce. \n\n\nto attack this statement on its own: 'Do you fundamentally reject the notions that an individual is entitled to the fruits of his labor and that one is entitled to engage in voluntary transactions?\"\n\n\nWage labor is not volentary, the only choice the workers have is what slave owner to choose. \n\nThe fruit of a workers labor is what they produce, not what others produce on something they control through violence. \n\n\n\n>\"Lastly on this topic you present a false dichotomy in place of the spectrum of options available to the working class. you claim that he either comes to an agreement with the owners of the machines or starves, but he has other options. Firstly he could establish his own means of production or otherwise provide a service which other individuals wish to exchange goods for second he could sustain himself through other means such as farming and/or foraging. Assuming he is not a slave there is no factor which forces the individual to work for another man.\"\n\nTurning a worker into the bourgeoisie is extremely hard, and its economically impossible for the majority of people to do it. \n\nUnless of course you imagine a world before capitalism, where everybody can own their own weaving loom.\n\n\nAnd again, the worker would then just be a slave to the open market. Free lance workers actually tend to have it worse because there are no laws protecting how the large corporations they often work for treat them. \n\n\n\n>\"Firstly you claim that the social relations of the worker to the owner can not exist without a monopoly of force (presumably in favor of the owner). This is inaccurate, perhaps you could argue that it is not likely to exist without use of force but to claim that it can not exist is wrong. For example if both the owner and the worker respect property rights as a fundamental moral principle, then there is no need for a monopoly of force. As another example, if we are feeling especially pessimistic on human nature, lets say both the workers and owners posses the ability to attack and defend each other with equal ability then the workers have no reason to attack the owners knowing that it would not be worth the risk. Thus property rights are respected without the need for a monopoly of force. The central point in this is that you can not simply assert that the relationship between workers and owner is only attainable through a monopoly of force and therefore immoral. You must make the argument that it this is the case, which you have not \"\n\n\nI said this was the government.\n\n\n\n\"For example if both the owner and the worker respect property rights as a fundamental moral principle, then there is no need for a monopoly of force\"\n\nif both me and the children in a hospital respected my right to bomb them with white phosphorus on moral principle there is no need for a monopoly of force. \n\n\n\n\"lets say both the workers and owners posses the ability to attack and defend each other with equal ability then the workers have no reason to attack the owners knowing that it would not be worth the risk.\"\n\n\nactually whenever that happens they usually completely destroy them and end up better for it.\n\nhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution_of_1936\n\n\nrevolutionary spain, ussr, china, and rojava are all examples of this. The problem with your statement is that you assume that the ownership is actually needed. Ownership actually only hurts the workers, so it will always need a monopoly of force.\n\n\n\n\n>\"You state that the workers made and use the means of production, which I think we can again refer to as machines without losing any generality. It then appears that you make the claim that the owner must use violence to claim ownership of the machines. Now if it is the case that the owner just happened to stumble into a factory with workers building machines and called his guards to claim ownership of the machines then yes that would clearly be an inexcusable use of force, but if the owner walked into town with a box of gears and drill bits and entered a voluntary transaction with a group of workers to exchange labor for money wherein it was agreed that the completed machine would remain the property of the owner\"\n\n\" it was agreed that the completed machine would remain the property of the owner\"\n\nI don't give a flying fuck what a contract or agreement says. The workers do it because they need resources to service, and the owners do it because through ownership of the means of production they can control the workers and steal the results of their labor. Private ownership of property does not need to exist, so you can't make any claims about \"rights\". Rights are a social construct, the only freedom you have is the freedom you take.",
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      "body": "Hello this is quite a long response so i tried to format it in a way that is easy to read without reading my whole response. Id like to see what you have to say in response to the following issues. My central points are 2, 4 and 5. so if you want to just respond to those that would be fine with me. I apologize in advance for any abundant grammar mistakes which I'm sure are present here.\n\n**within your example of machines:**\n\n(1)\nyour word choice in referring to the owners of the means of production as a group of entities, in my view, masks the fact that ownership of the means of production is more fluid. Despite the fact that many wealthy families may hold their wealth, there is an ever present circulation of people in and out of the working class.\n\n(2)\nAdditionally you ignore the fact that the owners of the machines either produced or otherwise expended valuable resources to establish or obtain them. This means that the man who created the machine is rightfully the owner of the machine or that he engaged in a voluntary transaction to exchange his property for resources. Do you fundamentally reject the notions that an individual is entitled to the fruits of his labor and that one is entitled to engage in voluntary transactions? If so then you are embracing a fundamentally coercive economic system\n\n(3)\nLastly on this topic you present a false dichotomy in place of the spectrum of options available to the working class. you claim that he either comes to an agreement with the owners of the machines or starves, but he has other options. Firstly he could establish his own means of production or otherwise provide a service which other individuals wish to exchange goods for second he could sustain himself through other means such as farming and/or foraging. Assuming he is not a slave there is no factor which forces the individual to work for another man.\n\n\n**Regarding your statements on the state's relation to property:**\n\n(4)\nFirstly you claim that the social relations of the worker to the owner can not exist without a monopoly of force (presumably in favor of the owner). This is inaccurate, perhaps you could argue that it is not likely to exist without use of force but to claim that it can not exist is wrong. For example if both the owner and the worker respect property rights as a fundamental moral principle, then there is no need for a monopoly of force. As another example, if we are feeling especially pessimistic on human nature, lets say both the workers and owners posses the ability to attack and defend each other with equal ability then the workers have no reason to attack the owners knowing that it would not be worth the risk. Thus property rights are respected without the need for a monopoly of force. The central point in this is that you can not simply assert that the relationship between workers and owner is only attainable through a monopoly of force and therefore immoral. You must make the argument that it this is the case, which you have not done.\n\n(5)\nYou state that the workers made and use the means of production, which I think we can again refer to as machines without losing any generality. It then appears that you make the claim that the owner must use violence to claim ownership of the machines. Now if it is the case that the owner just happened to stumble into a factory with workers building machines and called his guards to claim ownership of the machines then yes that would clearly be an inexcusable use of force, but if the owner walked into town with a box of gears and drill bits and entered a voluntary transaction with a group of workers to exchange labor for money wherein it was agreed that the completed machine would remain the property of the owner",
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      "body": "@@ -2753,8 +2753,43 @@\n iticism.\n+%0A%0AThis post was edited for clarity.\n",
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      "body": "@@ -2570,16 +2570,33 @@\n that she\n+, or anyone else,\n  was or \n@@ -2628,16 +2628,27 @@\n shonest \n+and second \n that whe\n",
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      "body": "Firstly there is no need to be defensive. As I said before these are not personal insults, I'm just trying to understand your perspective. \n\nNow I did overlook that sentence about Japan, but there is no need to claim that I'm not capable of reading; your argument should be strong enough to stand on its own without trying to attack my character over an honest mistake. \n\nAs far as the substance of your post goes...\n\nIn your first paragraph here in your response and in the paragraph where you mention Japan you seem to be making the argument that we do not subject Japan's racial discrimination to moral scrutiny so we should therefore not subject Saudi Arabia 's gender discrimination to moral scrutiny. Is this a fair characterization of your argument? \n\nIf so I think that this argument as it stands is not valid, after all we could take this argument the other direction and say \"We subject Saudi Arabia's gender discrimination to moral scrutiny so we should subject Japan's racial discrimination to moral scrutiny\". This would be just as suitable unless we make an argument for moral relativism or to be specific, [metaethical moral relativism](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/moral-relativism/#ForArg) being applicable to these issues and that this relativism then implies that we can not pass moral judgments on other cultures. \n\nNow you have not made this argument, but rather originally differed to the perspective of anthropologists and have now back tracked that position to simply claim that its common sense that one should be willing to subject themselves to the standards of another society because a human being ***\"should be able to accept that some cultures are different [than] others.\"***; however saying \"well it's just common sense\" is not an argument and functions to portray me or anyone who disagrees with this claim as lacking common sense. Additionally I would claim that the statement is wrong in two regards, not only is this not *common sense*,  but it is an indefensible position to take when we look at it in certain applications and therefore can not be a general principle.\n\nFor example if one is born or otherwise finds himself in a society which would allocate him to a life of slavery, would you not agree that he would be justified in passing a moral judgement on said society or should he just say ***\"when in rome\"*** and resign himself to slavery?\n\nThis post is gettting kinda long and I think ive made my core points so I wont go on in this post, but I would also like to add two points. First that I never made the claim that she was or was not intellectually dishonest that when you call my writing nonsensical, back it up and point out where I am wrong, I am receptive to criticism.",
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      "author": "kyriacos",
      "body": "I lived in Japan and saw basically or non-Japanese treated as second class citizens. It happens all around the world. I mention this in my post above. Read before you comment. Heck, try to use google and check that this is happening everywhere across the globe and people are ok with it. Fat people, people with zits, ugly and such are also treated as second and even third class citizens. Such is the world. \n\nHuman Rights are a joke for the very reasons I mentioned above. Only apply on paper, not real life. \n\nYour fourth paragraph is nonsensical but tried to appear intellectual. Simply, you can visit a country that treats you differently because as a human being should be able to accept that some cultures are different as others. Whether you are an anthropologist or not is irrelevant. It is common sense. \n\nI actually explained how she is intellectually dishonest by mentioning that she was ok to visit Russia that doesn't accept LGBT rights but she has problem being escorted my men for a few days in another country. \n\nPick up on reading comprehension before you try to pass criticism.",
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      "body": "I think your post contains some faulty logic, this is not an insult but just a statment which i believe is true. I would like to have a respectable discussion with you to try to flesh out the argument you are making and see if we can find some common ground and understand each other's point of view. There are two main concerns I have with your post.\n\nFirstly I would like to establish whether or not you are as intellectually dishonest as you claim Anna is. Would you be as critical of her if she was a black woman who refused to go to a nation which treated black people as second class citizens who were refused the right to marry, obtain a passport, travel, or seek an education without permission from a white gaurdian? \n\nWell this is analogous to the conditions that, according to [**a 2015 Report by Human Rights Watch**](https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/saudi-arabia#49dda6), women in saudi arabia live under and if you would not be willing to pose the same criticism in both scenarios then how can you justify this distinction? If you can not justify it then perhaps you should question your own intellectual honesty.\n\nAs a man who believes strongly in the equality of men, women, and all other individuals under the law I can very much sympathize with why she would take this moral stance, and I would imagine in this analogous situation you would agree. So you should equally well apply the same logic to both scenarios, unless there is a moral distinction between the two.\n\nSecondly you mention a perspective of evaluating cultures, which anthropologists use, to justify your claim that she is wrong in passing judgement on other culture's. This appears to be a fallacious argument, which attempts to avoid making an actual case for cultural relativism by appealing to an *expert* opinion. This wouldn't be too bad, after all there is nothing wrong with appealing to experts in certain scenarios; however you appear to conflate expert opinions on [**anthropology**](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/anthropology), which seeks to study behavior and cultural developments of humans, with expert opinions on [**philosophy**](https://www.thefreedictionary.com/philosophy), which seeks to evaluate values based on logic.\n\nIn addition to these points there are a number of other areas in which your post is lacking. You make multiple leaps of logic, such as the fact that you attack her as being intellectually dishonest without actually making the case that her refusal to travel to a country which does not recognize the fundamental rights of individuals of her gender is morally equivalent to respecting the quirks of culture of a country which she may have chosen to travel to. \n\nId love to hear a response to this to see where you stand and promote a dialogue which advances both of our understanding of the issues at hand.",
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