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      "body": "I'll confess to not listening to the interview either, but having spent many hours in conversation with Kenny in my living room, my office, and most of all my kitchen, I've learned a lot about his vision. Nevertheless, I had a similar thought to Monica's when I first read Erika's article.\n\nBut that thought doesn't just apply to Kenny. It applies to any \"gift economy.\" Even on as grand a scale as Burning Man, it's only possible because so much capital flows in from the outside that this amazing, seemingly money-less event is even remotely possible.\n\nRainbow Gatherings are not dissimilar. The equipment; the coordination; the supplies -- these are all sourced by money. Even when the food comes from dumpster-diving, it was available to be thrown away because it was originally purchased into inventory, and it's even in the dumpster because the financial calculation of its revenue vs. liability is now in the negative.\n\nThe difference isn't whether money is *involved*. It's whether it's *counted*.  There are no human interactions in the world that aren't made possible through the medium of exchange. My wife can only breast-feed our newborn daughter because she's able to eat enough calories to produce milk from the groceries that I buy. But can you think of a less economically-driven interaction than a mother with her newborn child?\n\nNot counting money is a strategy often executed by the extremely wealthy.  The cliched line from the billionaire is \"money is no object\" or \"we spared no expense.\" When you are pursuing highly materialistic goals (including noble ones like private space flight or creating truly free markets,) these mean you paid the price without counting the cost. But Kenny pursues relationships, experiences, and communities. And in this, he can say like the billionaire \"I don't care how much it costs\" and find a way to reach his goals with little or no money.\n\nIt's the same concept; it just works in reverse.\n\nSure, I helped finance Kenny's time in Acapulco. I didn't do it because he laid out a fee schedule and a per-diem expense requirement that I found satisfactory. I simply said \"I want you here to support my family as we prepare for the conference and our new child and I'll cover your expenses in order to have that.\" And he said \"well, then that will make it possible and I look forward to being there.\"\n\nWe didn't agree on rates or expense limits. I just knew that Kenny would offer whatever I needed and he knew that I would make sure he was comfortable and neither of us ran a spreadsheet for it.\n\nInterestingly enough, we DID run a spreadsheet for part of his stay, and that is the group house he set up to help Anarchapulco attendees be able to afford the conference. I fronted the money for it and he maintained meticulous books to ensure that I received that money back. Thus ensuring that we can do the same thing again next year.\n\nBut he didn't give the guests in the house fixed rates. He simply asked them to support the house in what they thought was fair, and they did, even paying out a bit more than what I'd put up allowing Kenny to walk away with some extra money to help him move on to his next goal.\n\nSo that's the strategy -- not to eschew money but to avoid counting it and maximizing it and focusing on the numeric outcome rather than the human relationships and experiences that result.\n\nNow... ALL THIS being said, I wouldn't choose the same lifestyle for myself. In my case, it's because I have a family. I choose to count very carefully in order to ensure that my wife and children are comfortable and happy. I count carefully in order to make sure that the Anarchapulco conference can continue to take place year-to-year. I count carefully to make my customers successful in my consulting business and get everyone on my staff paid in order to support their families as well.\n\nThat's the path I've chosen, but it demands no diminishing of Kenny's choices. I admire his path and will continue supporting it long into the future.",
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      "author": "barrycooper",
      "body": "Ha. Good point @the-ntf and if that were said about me today, it would be a very high compliment. A google search of me and nevergetbusted during the early years will show one big underlying  accusation many accused me of....producing  the videos just to make money.  Even the leaders of large activist organizations said this.  NORML, LEAP, FlexYourRights and others could not believe I produced the videos as a form of penance and love.  So during that time period, it was a big insult that I constantly had to defend.  You can find cable news interview of me defending the attack. I always stated \"Yes, I am doing this for money but that's not the main purpose. I'm doing this to pay back for the crimes I committed and am doing this out of love. \" It was also hurtful because the detective accused me of doing it just for the money while he was the one who was actually doing it for just the money.  Does this help?",
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      "body": "\"Even though he betrayed me and attempted to assassinate my character...\"\n\nI'm just trying to figure out how saying you weren't born to be a cop but were born to be a businessman is assassinating your character. I can't think of a higher compliment he could pay you.",
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      "body": "If you think the disease model takes away people's perception of choice over addiction, you should examine the standard AA 12-step program. AA's \"Big Book\" is terrible in this regard, literally telling the addict to recite that they are powerless over their addiction.",
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      "author": "isacvale",
      "body": "Thanks for a great answer! But I'll try a second punch, if you don't mind.\n\nSomewhere on this forum I argued that maybe we make judgment calls based on both *principles* (deontological ethics) and *consequences* (consequentialism). I know the author is concerned with principles alone, but our brain probably weighs the two, in ways I don't claim to know, to get to an answer of *right* or *wrong*.\n\nThat said, I throw in the towel on deontological grounds. There is no way to delegate a moral right that you don't have. (Well, unless it was thought in advance that the collective had the moral right to act, but that is another discussion.)\n\nBut in terms of *consequentialism*, things change. It might not be moral for one person to act because he feels he cannot adequately predict the consequences. But if enough people join in, their prediction might be good enough for them to act.\n\nI'll illustrate. Imagine your neighbor's wacky religion makes him treat his kid in a way you disapprove. Questions about his freedom of religion against his kid's rights will pop up on your head and you might find the problem too tough. You might then default to not intervene. *(After all, maybe the kid can survive without a blood transfusion.)*\n\nA solution to this problem lies in asking for help from the community, so the issue is assessed by more people and more solutions arise. This is not exactly delegating a moral right you don't have - it's more like consolidating a moral imperative - but its end result is the same: the collective may morally act when the individual can't.\n\nI'd just point out the the same principle acts in reverse, in what's called [*diffusion of responsability*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility). In this phenomenon, people don't act because they believe it is society's responsibility to act. The existence of such a phenomenon is a hint that sometimes it might be moral for the collective to act, even if no individual could.",
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      "author": "the-ntf",
      "body": ">What do you mean by \"behaviors which can be universally shared?\"\n\nThat these behaviors can be practiced by everyone simultaneously without contradiction.  Not that they ARE, but that they CAN BE without inconsistency.",
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      "author": "the-ntf",
      "body": "\"...are you assuming that people universally do not want to be murdered, so there's a right not to be murdered?\"\n\nIn order for it to be murder, the person must refuse consent. If the person consents to be deprived of life, that's assisted suicide. The denial of consent is built in to the definition of the action.",
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      "author": "the-ntf",
      "body": "\"I delegated my authority to protect myself using force in my example.\"\n\nYou can delegate the right to defense to other agencies. You can even group together with others and delegate your right to defense as a group.\n\nHowever you have no right to steal. Nor does anyone in your group. So you cannot delegate the right to steal to your agency. You can have all the delegate defense you want, provided you pay for it without theft.\n\nYou also do not have the right to force others to join your group. So therefore you cannot delegate to your agency a right to force others to join. Therefore your agency cannot enforce itself as a monopoly on defense.\n\nWhich is what the question is really about.",
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      "body": "Not a bad shot, but I'll explain how you miss the mark...\n\nWe can concretize your scenario fairly easily: let's say person A is hungry and person B has an apple. Person A would like to eat the apple. If person A simply eats the apple, then it is an act of theft and is immoral. But if A asks B if he can eat the apple, and B consents, then it is no longer theft.\n\nThe difference between whether the act is moral or immoral is consent. (You could substitute lots of stuff in the scenario, by the way, including sex and even death.) So the exchange of information is required not to make an immoral act a moral one, but to determine whether the act itself is moral or immoral.\n\nIf B says \"no, that's my apple and I want to eat it myself\", then for A to eat it would be immoral. A cannot delegate to person C the right to take the apple without B's consent, because A didn't have the moral right to do that in the first place.\n\nThe question itself doesn't pertain to a right like self-defense. It pertains primarily to taxes and regulations. Since you have no right to steal, you can't delegate to someone the right to steal on your behalf.\n\nBut your response does a great job of honing in on the difference between moral and immoral acts: consent. The exchange of information is necessary to establish consent and therefore the morality of given actions.\n\nAnd in case anyone wants to walk down the road of ethics in emergencies, there are scenarios where consent can be obtained after the fact. Like pushing someone out of the way of a speeding bus -- an act which is rescue with consent, but assault without it.",
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      "body": "Dude, you just won my heart @the-ntf.  What is your background in quantum and asto physics?  Do you blog?  Whether you do or not, I'm following you.",
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      "body": "Makes complete sense and thanks for pointing that  out. Sometimes  I am limited by my earthcentric ways.",
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      "body": "This is not a statement of advocacy of the claim...\n\nThe position of the earth 1000 years in the future will be very different from the position of the earth now, relative to almost every object outside our solar system.  Similarly, if you could go directly back in time right now by even 1 hour,  you would be floating in space, only to have the earth crash into you slightly less than an hour later.\n\nThat's why there's a remark about movement in time also being in space. If you want to go back to the earth 1000 years ago, you have to travel a very great distance in space, otherwise you'll just be floating around in the spot where the earth will arrive in 1000 years. (And you might get sucked into the sun in the meantime.)",
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