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      "body": "Congratulations @platosophia! You received a personal award!\n\n<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/70x70/http://steemitboard.com/@platosophia/birthday2.png</td><td>Happy Birthday! - You are on the Steem blockchain for 2 years!</td></tr></table>\n\n<sub>_You can view [your badges on your Steem Board](https://steemitboard.com/@platosophia) and compare to others on the [Steem Ranking](https://steemitboard.com/ranking/index.php?name=platosophia)_</sub>\n\n\n###### [Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1) to get one more award and increased upvotes!",
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      "body": ">Oh no. This is not our rational standard. This is not even rational. Rather, this is an informal fallacy in logic called argumentum ad ignorantiam that says a proposition is true because it has not proven to be false (or vice versa). For instance, we didn’t have any evidences for the existence of electrons not until Thomson discovered it in 1897. Does that mean that electrons didn’t exist back then? Of course not.\n\nThat is why I said that things without evidence do not exist **until proven otherwise**, ie, they are hypotesys by default. If you argue that they are not mere hypotesys, you have the burden of the proof.\n\n>For instance, the laws of arithmetic or logic. We can’t prove them (w/o reasoning in circle), rather we only presuppose and utilize them to prove other things.\n\nMath is not true or false, it is only an instrument of reason. But even reason itself isn't onthologicaly true or false. It is true in some situations and absolutely useless in another ones.\n\n>I don't where you get that number.\n\nFor each one thing that you show me to exist, I can imagine and describe to you 10 things that you won't believe to exist.\n\n>  However, I see no reason to deny that agnoticism is not compatible with dobut and the demand for some evidence. Perhaps you want to show your evidence for this too?\n>May know where you get this general rule you affirm? (And by the way, you need to show your proof for this too!)\n\nAre you agnostic regarding leprechauns? Are you agnostic regarding ETs? Or you don't believe them **until proven otherwise**?\n\n>And lastly, please upvote this if you think the conversation is fruitful. Thank you for engaging my first post! :)\n\nDone.",
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      "body": "Hello @discernente, thank you for responding. Let me respond to your claims also. \n\n>In reality we never have absolute certainties in this life. By the way, does absolute certainty even exist? \n\nYes, concerning absolute or rational certainty, I agree with you with the majority of the philosophers. That bar is too high for knowledge (i.e., human knowledge). This was the mistake for the rationalists (esp. Descartes) for their epistemology (which resulted in dogmatism). So anyone who claims to have an absolute certainty of knowledge, the best response would be suspicion. Let's catch that person and study him!\n\n>But regardless, what I meant is that our rational standard is that things without evidence do not exist until proven otherwise. \n\nOh no. This is not our rational standard. This is not even rational. Rather, this is an informal fallacy in logic called *argumentum ad ignorantiam* that says a proposition is true because it has not proven to be false (or vice versa). For instance, we didn't have any evidences for the existence of electrons not until Thomson discovered it in 1897. Does that mean that electrons didn't exist back then? Of course not. \n\n>It is more rational not to believe in the existence of things without any evidence, than to simply believe and even propagate this belief without proving anything of what is being affirmed. That sounds even slightly arrogant and dishonest intellectually.\n\nYes. I couldn't agree any better with this.\n\n>Well IMHO I think that the context matters little, since the question is objective. What matters is the affirmation itself, of the objective existence in the real world of something without having to prove it. The human mind is prodigal in imagining things, but not even 1% of the things we imagine exist in the factual reality outside our imagination.\n\nYes. I also (a lot of times)  imagine things that don't exist in factual reality. Especially before sleep. But may I know where you get that number from?\n\n>Thus, regardless of context, whenever the claim is that there is something without any evidence, the first natural reaction of any rational person should be the doubt and the demand for some evidence.\n\nI agree with the latter part, but I think where you err here is when you start it with \"regardless of context\". Philosophers actually recognize *a priori* truths (i.e., truths that are true by their own nature.) For instance, the laws of arithmetic or logic. We can't prove them (w/o reasoning in circle), rather we only presuppose and utilize them to prove other things.\n\nOn the other hand, where you view is compatible is in *the belief of the non-occurence of events without any evidence for it*. Irving Copi, in his his helpful book *Introduction to Logic*:\n\n _In some circumstances it can be safely assumed that if a certain event had occurred, evidence of it could be discovered by qualified investigators. In such circumstances it is perfectly reasonable to take the absence of proof of its occurrence as positive proof of its non-occurrence (1953, p. 95)_ \n\nThat is, *occurence* is not identical with *existence*. And my post is about the latter (and so are your objections).\n\n>Therefore, I think that the most rational position for 99% of the claims of existence without evidence is first and foremost the doubt, the demand for some evidence, and not simply agnosticism. Adopting agnosticism just because you can not prove otherwise would be almost like a reversal of the burden of proof.\n\nI don't where you get that number. However, I see no reason to deny that agnoticism is not compatible with dobut and the demand for some evidence. Perhaps you want to show your evidence for this too? \n\n>What is affirmed without proof can be rejected without proof, that is the general rule.\n\nMay know where you get this general rule you affirm? (And by the way, you need to show your proof for this too!)\n\nAnd lastly, please upvote this if you think the conversation is fruitful. Thank you for engaging my first post! :)",
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      "body": "Congratulations @platosophia! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :\n\n[![](https://steemitimages.com/70x80/http://steemitboard.com/notifications/firstvoted.png)](http://steemitboard.com/@platosophia) You got a First Vote\n[![](https://steemitimages.com/70x80/http://steemitboard.com/notifications/firstcommented.png)](http://steemitboard.com/@platosophia) You got a First Reply\n\nClick on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.\nFor more information about SteemitBoard, click [here](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard)\n\nIf you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word `STOP`\n\n> By upvoting this notification, you can help all Steemit users. Learn how [here](https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/http-i-cubeupload-com-7ciqeo-png)!",
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      "body": ">Good point. Yes, if I understand where you are coming from, you are claiming that there are some things we don't believe to exist because we have no evidence for it. You are correct. For instance, a flying crocodile or a unicorn. We are perfectly rational to hold the belief that both don't exist with the absence of any evidence. But that doesn't mean it's logically impossible that both of them don't exist. Although experience tells us that it's highly plausible that they don't.\n\nIn reality we never have absolute certainties in this life. By the way, absolute certainty even exists? But regardless, what I meant is that our rational standard is that things without evidence do not exist until proven otherwise. It is more rational not to believe in the existence of things without any evidence, than to simply believe and even propagate this belief without proving anything of what is being affirmed. That sounds even slightly arrogant and dishonest intellectually.\n\n>However, when we say \"absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence,\" we need to understand this in a context of a debate where two sides are claiming to have opposing view points. For instance, suppose that two people (i.e., John and James) are discussing whether Batanes Island exists. Now for John, since he went there for summer and took a photo of him in its beach, he is perfectly rational to hold the belief that that island exists. But for James, who just heard the island for the first time, he cannot claim that Batanes island doesn't exist (although he can believe that it doesn't) because he simply doesn't have any evidence for it, because John is claiming the opposite and showing some evidences. Thus, the best position for James would be agnosticism. (Of course, that doesn't mean that James can no longer believe that that island doesn't exit. But that's not equal to saying that the island doesn't exist. For one reason that the first one is a belief about how the world is, and the second one is how the world really is).\n\nWell IMHO I think that the context matters little, since the question is objective. What matters is the affirmation itself, of the objective existence in the real world of something without having to prove it. The human mind is prodigal in imagining things, but not even 1% of the things we imagine exist in the factual reality outside our imagination. \n\nThus, regardless of context, whenever the claim is that there is something without any evidence, the first natural reaction of any rational person should be the doubt and the demand for some evidence. \n\nTherefore, I think that the most rational position for 99% of the claims of existence without evidence is first and foremost the doubt, the demand for some evidence, and not simply agnosticism. Adopting agnosticism just because you can not prove otherwise would be almost like a reversal of the burden of proof.\n\nWhat is affirmed without proof can be rejected without proof, that is the general rule.",
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      "body": "Good point. Yes, if I understand where you are coming from, you are claiming that *there are some things we don't believe to exist because we have no evidence for it.* You are correct. For instance, a flying crocodile or a unicorn. We are perfectly rational to hold the belief that both don't exist with the absence of any evidence. But that doesn't mean it's *logically impossible* that both of them don't exist. Although experience tells us that it's highly plausible that they don't.\n\nHowever, when we say \"absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence,\" we need to understand this in a context of a debate where two sides are claiming to have  opposing view points.  For instance, suppose that two people (i.e., John and James) are discussing whether Batanes Island exists. Now for John, since he went there for summer and took a photo of him in its beach, he is perfectly rational to hold the belief that that island exists. But for James, who just heard the island for the first time, he cannot claim that *Batanes island doesn't exist* (although he can *believe* that it doesn't) because he simply doesn't have any evidence for it, because John is claiming the opposite and showing some evidences. Thus, the best position for James would be agnosticism. (Of course, that doesn't mean that James can no longer *believe* that that island doesn't exit. But that's not equal to saying that the island doesn't exist. For one reason that the first one is a belief about how the world is, and the second one is how the world really is).",
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      "body": "“absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence.”\n\nI disagree with that sentence, because everything that you do not believe, it is just because you don't have any evidence for that. What else could be?",
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      "body": "Congratulations @platosophia! You have completed some achievement on Steemit and have been rewarded with new badge(s) :\n\n[![](https://steemitimages.com/70x80/http://steemitboard.com/notifications/firstpost.png)](http://steemitboard.com/@platosophia) You published your First Post\n\nClick on any badge to view your own Board of Honor on SteemitBoard.\nFor more information about SteemitBoard, click [here](https://steemit.com/@steemitboard)\n\nIf you no longer want to receive notifications, reply to this comment with the word `STOP`\n\n> By upvoting this notification, you can help all Steemit users. Learn how [here](https://steemit.com/steemitboard/@steemitboard/http-i-cubeupload-com-7ciqeo-png)!",
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      "body": "@@ -1,8 +1,184 @@\n+https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Creaci%25C3%25B3n_de_Ad%25C3%25A1n_%2528Miguel_%25C3%2581ngel%2529.jpg/1200px-Creaci%25C3%25B3n_de_Ad%25C3%25A1n_%2528Miguel_%25C3%2581ngel%2529.jpg%0A%0A\n *Does Go\n@@ -4019,8 +4019,33 @@\n : 45-75.\n+%0A%0AImage Source: Wikipedia\n",
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      "body": "*Does God exist?* \n\n<b>Scientific naturalists</b> often claim that we don’t have any evidence for that. A lot of them identify themselves as atheists. That is, positively claiming that <b>God does not exist</b>. \n\nBut generally, the “absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence.” Thus, the consistent position should be <b>agnosticism</b> (i.e., claiming to <b>know nothing</b> positive or negative about the issue). \n\nAtheism, however, has been defended by the late philosopher <b>Antony Flew</b> (1923-2010) for much of his life. He was even considered as the most widely read skeptic for half a century. His popularity was also factored by his popularization of the *<b>Parable of the Invisible Gardener</b>*: \n\n_Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, \"Some gardener must tend this plot.\" The other disagrees, \"There is no gardener.\" So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. \"But perhaps he is an invisible gardener.\" So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. \"But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves. At last the Sceptic despairs, \"But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?\" (Flew 1950)._\n\nHowever, few years before his death, Flew changed his mind. He renounced atheism and began to consider himself as a <b>deist</b>. And that conversion lead him to publish his last book entitled *There Is a God* (2007).  \n\nHow come? \n\nWell, Flew admits that the discovery of <b>DNA</b> “has shown [him], by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.” In other words, *the information in the DNA cries out for an intelligence!* As Bill Gates confessed: “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created” (1995).\n\nUnfortunately, deism only leaves you with a god who doesn’t care. Or perhaps a father who abandoned and walked his own way, while leaving his children bewildered. \n\nBut this is not the case for <b>Christianity</b>. As the scholar <b>John Warwick Montgomery</b> responded to Flew’s parable:\n\n_In Christianity we do not have merely an allegation that the garden of this world is tended by a loving Gardener; we have the actual empirical entrance of the Gardener into the human scene in the person of <b>Jesus Christ</b> (John 20:14-15), and this entrance is verifiable by way of his resurrection (see Montgomery 1956 on issues of theological verification)._\n\nSo to answer the title, yes, the gardener showed up. He was not only the gardener but the <b>Creator</b> as well (c.f., John 1:3). And he went even further to die with two pieces of wood for the sins of the world, just to offer forgiveness and life for those who believe in him.\n\n<h2>References:</h2> \nFlew, Antony. \"Theology and Falsification.\" (1950).\n—. *There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind*. New York: HarperCollins, 2007. Print.\nGates, Bill. *The Road Ahead*. 1995: Viking Press, n.d. Print.\nMontgomery, John W. \"Inspiration and Innerancy: A New Departure.\" *Evangelical Society Bulletin 8 1956*: 45-75.",
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      "body": "*Does God exist?* \n\n<b>Scientific naturalists</b> often claim that we don’t have any evidence for that. A lot of them identify themselves as atheists. That is, positively claiming that <b>God does not exist</b>. \n\nBut generally, the “absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence.” Thus, the consistent position should be <b>agnosticism</b> (i.e., claiming to <b>know nothing</b> positive or negative about the issue). \n\nAtheism, however, has been defended by the late philosopher <b>Antony Flew</b> (1923-2010) for much of his life. He was even considered as the most widely read skeptic for half a century. His popularity was also factored by his popularization of the *<b>Parable of the Invisible Gardener</b>*: \n\n_Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, \"Some gardener must tend this plot.\" The other disagrees, \"There is no gardener.\" So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. \"But perhaps he is an invisible gardener.\" So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. \"But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves. At last the Sceptic despairs, \"But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?\" (Flew 1950)._\n\nHowever, few years before his death, Flew changed his mind. He renounced atheism and began to consider himself as a <b>deist</b>. And that conversion lead him to publish his last book entitled *There Is a God* (2007).  \n\nHow come? \n\nWell, Flew admits that the discovery of <b>DNA</b> “has shown [him], by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.” In other words, *the information in the DNA cries out for an intelligence!* As Bill Gates confessed: “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created” (1995).\n\nUnfortunately, deism only leaves you with a god who doesn’t care. Or perhaps a father who abandoned and walked his own way, while leaving his children bewildered. \n\nBut this is not the case for <b>Christianity</b>. As the scholar <b>John Warwick Montgomery</b> responded to Flew’s parable:\n\n_In Christianity we do not have merely an allegation that the garden of this world is tended by a loving Gardener; we have the actual empirical entrance of the Gardener into the human scene in the person of <b>Jesus Christ</b> (John 20:14-15), and this entrance is verifiable by way of his resurrection (see Montgomery 1956 on issues of theological verification)._\n\nSo to answer the title, yes, the gardener showed up. He was not only the gardener but the <b>Creator</b> as well (c.f., John 1:3). And he went even further to die with two pieces of wood for the sins of the world, just to offer forgiveness and life for those who believe in him.\n\n<h2>References:</h2> \nFlew, Antony. \"Theology and Falsification.\" (1950).\n—. *There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind*. New York: HarperCollins, 2007. Print.\nGates, Bill. *The Road Ahead*. 1995: Viking Press, n.d. Print.\nMontgomery, John W. \"Inspiration and Innerancy: A New Departure.\" *Evangelical Society Bulletin 8 1956*: 45-75.",
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      "body": "*Does God exist?* \n\n<b>Scientific naturalists</b> often claim that we don’t have any evidence for that. A lot of them identify themselves as atheists. That is, positively claiming that <b>God does not exist</b>. \n\nBut generally, the “absence of evidence does not mean the evidence of absence.” Thus, the consistent position should be <b>agnosticism</b> (i.e., claiming to <b>know nothing</b> positive or negative about the issue). \n\nAtheism, however, has been defended by the late philosopher <b>Antony Flew</b> (1923-2010) for much of his life. He was even considered as the most widely read skeptic for half a century. His popularity was also factored by his popularization of the *<b>Parable of the Invisible Gardener</b>*: \n\n_Once upon a time two explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were growing many flowers and many weeds. One explorer says, \"Some gardener must tend this plot.\" The other disagrees, \"There is no gardener.\" So they pitch their tents and set a watch. No gardener is ever seen. \"But perhaps he is an invisible gardener.\" So they set up a barbed-wire fence. They electrify it. They patrol with bloodhounds. (For they remember how H. G. Well's The Invisible Man could be both smelt and touched though he could not be seen.) But no shrieks ever suggest that some intruder has received a shock. No movements of the wire ever betray an invisible climber. The bloodhounds never give cry. Yet still the Believer is not convinced. \"But there is a gardener, invisible, intangible, insensible, to electric shocks, a gardener who has no scent and makes no sound, a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden which he loves. At last the Sceptic despairs, \"But what remains of your original assertion? Just how does what you call an invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?\" (Flew 1950)._\n\nHowever, few years before his death, Flew changed his mind. He renounced atheism and began to consider himself as a <b>deist</b>. And that conversion lead him to publish his last book entitled *There Is a God* (2007).  \n\nHow come? \n\nWell, Flew admits that the discovery of <b>DNA</b> “has shown [him], by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce life, that intelligence must have been involved.” In other words, *the information in the DNA cries out for an intelligence!* As Bill Gates confessed: “DNA is like a computer program but far, far more advanced than any software ever created” (1995).\n\nUnfortunately, deism only leaves you with a god who doesn’t care. Or perhaps a father who abandoned and walked his own way, while leaving his children bewildered. \n\nBut this is not the case for <b>Christianity</b>. As the scholar <b>John Warwick Montgomery</b> responded to Flew’s parable:\n\n_In Christianity we do not have merely an allegation that the garden of this world is tended by a loving Gardener; we have the actual empirical entrance of the Gardener into the human scene in the person of <b>Jesus Christ</b> (John 20:14-15), and this entrance is verifiable by way of his resurrection (see Montgomery 1956 on issues of theological verification)._\n\nSo to answer the title, yes, the gardener showed up. He was not only the gardener but the <b>Creator</b> as well (c.f., John 1:3). And he went even further to die with two pieces of wood for the sins of the world, just to offer forgiveness and life for those who believe in him.\n\n<h2>References:</h2> \nFlew, Antony. \"Theology and Falsification.\" (1950).\n—. *There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind*. New York: HarperCollins, 2007. Print.\nGates, Bill. *The Road Ahead*. 1995: Viking Press, n.d. Print.\nMontgomery, John W. \"Inspiration and Innerancy: A New Departure.\" *Evangelical Society Bulletin 8 1956*: 45-75.",
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      "body": "This post is very helpful. I'll be visiting this once in a while. Thank you!",
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