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      "body": "This a good illustration of the \"Road to hell being paved with good intentions\" concept.\nIn What is Seen and What is Unseen, (I think that is the title) Bastiat expounds on the unseen consequnces of certain actions. I just wonder how much of our society functions on the notion of some people willfully avoiding looking for unseen consequenses, while trying to distract and shame others from considering them too.",
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      "parent_permlink": "consent",
      "author": "lysanderhiggs",
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      "title": "Coercive Consent",
      "body": "When we hear the phrase, \"No means no,\" we usually couch this in the context of sexual interactions. We nod in agreement with the idea that someone's body is sexually inviolate. We choose  who has access to it and who doesn't. If we don't want to give ourselves to someone, that person has no right to our body. We also tend to nod in agreement with one's right to defend (even violently) against bad actors who would try to violate our bodies in a sexual manner. The NO must be respected.\n\nWhile this certainly makes sense in this scenario, how far do we allow ourselves  and others to expand this concept beyond the sexual realm?  Not very far, I think.  \n\nAs we go through our daily lives as \"free\" people, how often is our NO disregarded with just a dash of violent threats? \n\nIf you take the risk of driving without a seatbelt, can you say no to the guy with the gun when he orders you to give his bosses $200?  Will you be met with threats or actual violence if you do not consent?  If you do not like people taking money from you to spend in ways you do not want or agree with, will these people leave you alone if you say, \"No thanks. I'd rather give my money to these other people whom I think do a better job?\" If your actions neither harm nor interfere with the rights others, does any particular group of people have the right to use threats or violence against you, regardless of your opposition to THEIR interference? In any of these scenarios, will your \"NO\" be respected? \n\nWhile rape is a traumatizing experience that scars the victim regardless of their compliance with their perpertrators, it is easy to see the differences between sexual assault and having to pay for a ticket. What is sometimes obscured, however, are the similar mechanisms of coercion that are used to perpetrate both behaviors. Both use threats or violence to achieve the end result. Both can lead to further violence or even death for noncompliance. Both are a violation of another's property. In both cases, the \"No\" is disregarded with violent intent, while the victim's property is violated at the mercy of their violators.\n\nWhile many will agree that perpetrators of violent sexual assault are deserving of violent retribution, what of the perpetrators that violently violate the consent of others through permission from third parties? What makes the violation of rights evil in one set of circumstances, yet approved as good with the same dynamics of violence to violate someone's rights in the other scenarios listed?\n\nHow can it be bad to disrespect a person's \"No\" in one case, but perfectly ok to disrespect that same person's \"No\" in another?",
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      "body": "When we hear the phrase, \"No means no,\" we usually couch this in the context of sexual interactions. We nod in agreement with the idea that someone's body is sexually inviolate. We choose  who has access to it and who doesn't. If we don't want to give ourselves to someone, that person has no right to our body. We also tend to nod in agreement with one's right to defend (even violently) against bad actors who would try to violate our bodies in a sexual manner. The NO must be respected.\n\nWhile this certainly makes sense in this scenario, how far do we allow ourselves  and others to expand this concept beyond the sexual realm?  Not very far, I think.  \n\nAs we go through our daily lives as \"free\" people, how often is our NO disregarded with just a dash violent threats? \n\nIf you take the risk of driving without a seatbelt, can to say no to the guy with the gun when he orders you to give his bosses $200?  Will you be met with threats or actual violence if you do not consent?  If you do not like people taking money from you to spend in ways you do not want or agree with, will these people leave you alone if you say ,\"No thanks. I'd rather give my money to these other people whom I think do a better job?\" If your actions neither harm nor interfere with the rights others, does any particular group of people have the right to use threats or violence against you, regardless of your opposition to THEIR interference? In any of these scenarios, will your \"NO\" be respected? \n\nWhile rape is a traumatizing experience that scars the victim regardless of their compliance with their perpertrators, it is easy to see the differences between sexual assault and having to pay for a ticket. What is sometimes obscured, however, are the similar mechanisms of coersion that are used to perpetrate both behaviors. Both use threats or violence to achieve the end result. Both can lead to further violence or even death for noncompliance. Both are a violation of another's property. In both cases, the \"No\" is disregarded with violent intent, while the victim's property is violated at the mercy of their violators.\n\nWhile many will agree that perpetrators of violent sexual assault are deserving of violent retribution, what of the perpetrators that violently violate the consent of others through permission from third parties? What makes the violation of rights evil in one set of circumstances, yet approved as good with the same dynamics of violence to violate someones rights in the other scenarios listed?\n\nHow can it be bad to disrespect a person's \"No\" in one case, but perfectly ok to disrespect that same person's \"No\" in another?",
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      "body": "When we hear the phrase, \"No means no,\" we usually couch this in the context of sexual interactions. We nod in agreement with the idea that someone's body is sexually inviolate. We choose  who has access to it and who doesn't. If we don't want to give ourselves to someone, that person has no right to our body. We also tend to nod in agreement with one's right to defend (even violently) against bad actors who would try to violate our bodies in a sexual manner. The NO must be respected.\n\nWhile this certainly makes sense in this scenario, how far do we allow ourselves  and others to expand this concept beyond the sexual realm?  Not very far, I think.  \n\nAs we go through our daily lives as \"free\" people, how often is our NO disregarded with just a dash violent threats? \n\nIf you take the risk of driving without a seatbelt, can to say no to the guy with the gun when he orders you to give his bosses $200?  Will you be met with threats or actual violence if you do not consent?  If you do not like people taking money from you to spend in ways you do not want or agree with, will these people leave you alone if you say ,\"No thanks. I'd rather give my money to these other people whom I think do a better job?\" If your actions neither harm nor interfere with the rights others, does any particular group of people have the right to use threats or violence against you, regardless of your opposition to THEIR interference? In any of these scenarios, will your \"NO\" be respected? \n\nWhile rape is a traumatizing experience that scars the victim regardless of their compliance with their perpertrators, it is easy to see the differences between sexual assault and having to pay for a ticket. What is sometimes obscured, however, are the similar mechanisms of coersion that are used to perpetrate both behaviors. Both use threats or violence to achieve the end result. Both can lead to further violence or even death for noncompliance. Both are a violation of another's property. In both cases, the \"No\" is disregarded with violent intent, while the victim's property is violated at the mercy of their violators.\n\nWhile many will agree that perpetrators of violent sexual assault are deserving of violent retribution, what of the perpetrators that violently violate the consent of others through permission from third parties? What makes the violation of rights evil in one set of circumstances, yet approved as good with the same dynamics of violence to violate someones rights in the other scenarios listed?\n\nHow can it be bad to disrespect a person's \"No\" in one case, but perfectly ok to disrespect that same person's \"No\" in another?",
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      "body": "First of all, thank you for the input! It is always nice to know how I can do things better.\n\nMy views come from many different places. I live in a very rural place, where your reputation may very well be your most valuable asset. People's actions have consequences beyond just the person helped/wronged. People pay attention and know who to trust and who not to. I will come back to this thought.\n\nI have also worked for people who were just starting businesses and started my own business. I have seen first hand how much work it is to try to abide by, and fulfill all the government's rules and regulations. There was also the limiting factor of regulations. For example, I own a coffee shop. Many of my customers like my baking and would by fresh pies and baked goods, if I would offer them at my store. However, regulation says that I have to have a certified kitchen in order to sell baked goods. It would benefit my customers and myself, but the government says no. Put that thought on hold. We will return to it, also. \n\nI serve on a local board here. Now, I have served on different boards and some meetings I just dreaded going to. People would fight tooth and nail for the way they wanted a vote to go and it could get downright ugly. Those boards were no fun to be on. However, the board I am on right now, decided that if we worked hard enough, we could take alright ideas and make them good enough we could all support them or we wouldn't do them. We don't accept anything less than a unanimous vote. That makes every vote count!\n\nThe thing that I find so interesting is that we do not fight. We spend no time worrying about who will win a vote. We just work on ideas and are creative. Rather than getting upset about ideas that we don't quite like, we point out what is desirable and what is not and make it into something we all love.\n\nTaking that perspective of no idea is so great that it should pass without full support, I started looking at the fights that are put up for elections. I looked at the sheer ugliness of them, and I couldn't help but wonder if there was a better way.\n\nWell, going back to the beginning, I started looking at all the government takes in the form of sales tax, income tax, social security, Medicare,...the list goes on and on. Then I tried to see how that benefited me and most of what I found were more regulations. It was like the government charged me to pay itself to also regulate me. However, people say that we need the government and it is there for our good. \n\nThe frustrating thing in politics, is that it is really hard to trace blame. Few are held accountable and when someone is held accountable one has to wonder if they were the scapegoat! Not like the reputation based system I grew up with.\n\nMany people will point to public schools or roads, and give government credit for them. Well, the public schools, (in my opinion) do not accomplish education. So, that is nothing to be proud of. Home schooling or private schooling will get you a better education. As for roads, road construction crews can build roads. What private businesses cannot do, is forcefully take land that isn't theirs, and make a road there. I don't agree with eminent domain, so I guess I am fine with that inability. \n\nAt this point, I had a friend suggest that we don't need government at all. I disagreed, but the more I looked into it, the more the government looks like a racket and not something we needed at all.\n\nNow, we have lots of people who rely on the government in one way or another, so we cannot just do away with it over night. So my vision would be to start building privatized organization to take over what government organizations do now.\n\nOne great example of this is private police type forces that have regained order where cops had given up. If I get a chance, I will link that article. Educating people to know that we can function without the burdensome government would be another step. \n\nI'm sure if we all brainstorm a bit, we can come up with some great ideas that don't involve force.",
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      "body": "First of all, thank you for the input! It is always nice to know how I can do things better.\n\nMy views come from many different places. I live in a very rural place, where your reputation may very well be your most valuable asset. People's actions have consequences beyond just the person helped/wronged. People pay attention and know who to trust and who not to. I will come back to this thought.\n\nI have also worked for people who were just starting businesses and started my own business. I have seen first hand how much work it is to try to abide by, and fulfill all the government's rules and regulations. There was also the limiting factor of regulations. For example, I own a coffee shop. Many of my customers like my baking and would by fresh pies and baked goods, if I would offer them at my store. However, regulation says that I have to have a certified kitchen in order to sell baked goods. It would benefit my customers and myself, but the government says no. Put that thought on hold. We will return to it, also. \n\nI service on a local board here. Now, I have served on different boards and some meetings I just dreaded going to. People would fight tooth and nail for the way they wanted a vote to go and it could get downright ugly. Those boards were no fun to be on. However, the board I am on right now, decided that if we worked hard enough, we could take alright ideas and make them good enough we could all support them or we wouldn't do them. We don't accept anything less than a unanimous vote. That makes every vote count!\n\nThe thing that I find so interesting is that we do not fight. We spend no time worrying about who will win a vote. We just work on ideas and are creative. Rather than getting upset about ideas that we don't quite like, we point out what is desirable and what is not and make it into something we all love.\n\nTaking that perspective of no idea is so great that it should pass without full support, I started looking at the fights that are put up for elections. I looked at the sheer ugliness of them, and I couldn't help but wonder if there was a better way.\n\nWell, going back to the beginning, I started looking at all the government takes in the form of sales tax, income tax, social security, Medicare,...the list goes on and on. Then I tried to see how that benefited me and most of what I found were more regulations. It was like the government charged me to pay itself to also regulate me. However, people say that we need the government and it is there for our good. \n\nThe frustrating thing in politics, is that it is really hard to trace blame. Few are held accountable and when someone is held accountable one has to wonder if they were the scapegoat! Not like the reputation based system I grew up with.\n\nMany people will point to public schools or roads, and give government credit for them. Well, the public schools, (in my opinion) do not accomplish education. So, that is nothing to be proud of. Home schooling or private schooling will get you a better education. As for roads, road construction crews can build roads. What private businesses cannot do, is forcefully take land that isn't theirs, and make a road there. I don't agree with eminent domain, so I guess I am fine with that inability. \n\nAt this point, I had a friend suggest that we don't need government at all. I disagreed, but the more I looked into it, the more the government looks like a racket and not something we needed at all.\n\nNow, we have lots of people who rely on the government in one way or another, so we cannot just do away with it over night. So my vision would be to start building privatized organization to take over what government organizations do now.\n\nOne great example of this is private police type forces that have regained order where cops had given up. If I get a chance, I will link that article. Educating people to know that we can function without the burdensome government would be another step. \n\nI'm sure if we all brainstorm a bit, we can come up with some great ideas that don't involve force.",
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      "body": "What are your ideas of what some of those new things might be or look like?  What is YOUR vision. I think this article would be better if you expound on what you would like to see, and the princples, conditions, or circumstances that shape your view.",
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