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      "body": "Yeah, he definitely doesn't have a background in promoting/marketing/advertising.  \n\nI'm guessing he plans to toss the DMs some pittance to have them help. I know guys that would do this kind of DM for a few bucks a month and a consistent audience. Now whether the guy doing the Kickstarter can find people like that or not, I have no clue. \n\nI did back the project. It's an interesting coincidence how it is exactly what I was talking about and looking for. If it gets funded, if they have DMs, and if the PvP aspects work out.\n\nAs for trying to find like-minded people, that's exactly what this guy is doing.",
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      "author": "lextenebris",
      "body": "> Yes, I can pretend to be the one-eyed dwarf who secretly likes elven cakes all by myself. But it would be nice if there were others to play along with.\n\nStep one is find where the people are. If you can't find where the people are, drag some people to where you are.\n\nThat's always been the biggest deal with anything that involves any other people. It's one of the hardest problems to solve, and is not soluble by a system or a platform.\n\nI have never had any luck looking for a role-playing group by telling people that I'm looking for one. I have always, without question, always had to be the one who went up to other people and said, \"hey, let's go do this thing.\" Which is why for decades on end I was \"the default GM.\"\n\nIn particular if you want to play a game which hinges on human decision-making as the primary means of mechanical resolution, and that's what you've been describing because that's what it takes to span all of the possibilities inherent in player action while restraining those actions to \"only what's believable,\" somebody is going to have to be that guy that makes the decisions. In very traditional game architectures, there is one guy, and he's always stuck with it.\n\nWhich is why I have moved largely into GM-less RPG architectures. I get tired of it. Occasionally, I want to play – even if I accept that I'm the one that is responsible for pulling groups together so I get to play.\n\nFind those people. Those people have to be found and drawn into your community, the personal circle of people that you deal with on a regular basis, if you want the chance to get to play what you want.\n\nYou also have to accept that the game you want to play may not even be possible. You want a lot of things which directly conflict with one another, the resolution of which for reasonable approximations are not within the parameters you've set.\n\n> I think they are superbly designed, but I find this aspect severely lacking in every open world sandbox style game with PvP I've played.\n\nNot to put too fine a point on it, but \"maps are hard.\"\n\nGames which are first and foremost FPS or RTS have a great advantage: the ways in which players can interact with them are severely constrained. The number of verbs that someone in an FPS or RTS can use to interact with their world is few in number. Go there. Pathfind there. Jump on that. Use this skill which has a very tightly defined effect on that location.\n\nIt's when you insist on having a much broader swath of ways to interact with the world that you have the multiplicative problem. A GM is easily tasked with figuring out the result of going \"I use this belt to leap out and swing around that branch, diverting my angle off to the right and landing on the bridge.\" Figuring out a way to even allow that intent to be conveyed to a machine? There are at least five PhD thesis papers in that problem alone.\n\nWhich means that a human needs to make that level of interpretation. But a human has a very limited set of ways to interact with the visual representation of the resulting world, and that communication takes time.\n\nOr as I've put it before, \"anybody can spell cat, but way fewer can draw one.\"\n\nIronically, when I think of \"open world sandbox style game with PVP coupled with FPS/TPS,\" the first thing to come to mind is Watch Dogs and its sequel, both of which made fleeing from an attacker within the richly realized worlds that they portrayed both great fun and greatly challenging.\n\nMaybe I'm just not finding the failures you are.\n\n> \"Like a wargame, but where you create and play act a unique character. Like D&D, but more like a wargame in that there is player vs player conflict.\"\n\nHere's your problem: other people.\n\nPeople are playing these kinds of games all over the place. Including Life Is Feudal and Wurm Online. People are playing exactly what you describe, creating and playing a unique character, one who is made ever more unique the more they do whatever it is they pursue. There is overtly and aggressively player versus player conflict. That conflict is baked into the world because resources are limited in extent and the time it takes to create them.\n\nThe games you want exist already. They're out there waiting for you to play them.\n\nThey match every one of your profiles – except people who want the same exact thing is you are playing them. People who are pursuing their own interests are playing them.\n\nSeriously, you have a choice, you can play the games that exist and match what you say you want, and if necessary go find some people who feel the same way that you do and want the same things you do to run on a private server, or a shard, or whatever the game technology of the platform is – or don't play.\n\nThe games are right there. They do what you say you want. (Though high magic mod of one of them could be quite interesting, though I have no idea if it's possible.)\n\nHell, it occurs to me that Minecraft actually matches what you've said you want for a game. It provides for all the things you want – except for a GM-mediated experience. With the right mods, you can even have active RTS management of attacks on other players and other players' resources, diverse factionalization, and everything else.\n\nYou just need to find some people.\n\nThat's what you need to be working on. The games exist. The games can be played. You just need to find people to play them with.\n\n> This showed up in my Facebook feed last night: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/112107051/itherverse-fantasy-turn-based-game-dandd-5e-rpg-pl\n>\n> I might have to back it.\n\nI won't even get into how bad that video is or how much media it leans on which the creators of the Kickstarter don't have license to, but the worst thing about it is that it reads like the dream checklist of someone who has never actually put together a game, much less a gaming platform.\n\nThey want to build a play by email/play by forum platform. Nothing about their presentation or plan reassures me that they will be able to. I only that, they seem to labor under the idea that \"if they build it, GM's will come,\" and the one resource that they definitely won't have in nearly the numbers they will need are GM's.\n\nThis is a common problem.\n\nAs much as the platform isn't what I want in a game mediation system, I keep having to bring up [**Storium**](https://storium.com/) – which exists, which you can play, which people can run games in, which provides for a multitude of different play genres. **Storium** has the same problem is everything else, though – you need other people to play.\n\nFind those people. That's your job. Find them, play with them. Repeat.",
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      "body": ">Why should they? That's not the job of the mechanics. It's not the job of the system. It's not even the job of the platform.\n\nYes, I can pretend to be the one-eyed dwarf who secretly likes elven cakes all by myself. But it would be nice if there were others to play along with. That is what I was trying to get at. I also understand this game might not exist, and said as much in the article to which all of this is a response.\n\n\n> And, oh yes, somehow having a labyrinthine abstract interface which doesn't actually represent the environment and doesn't give someone enough information to make decisions about which way would be more or less advantageous, and thus give them feedback in order to become \"getting better at escaping danger\" is superior to literally immersing the player in the first person perspective or third person perspective of their avatar representation and basing their \"skill at getting better at escaping danger\" to learning the actual environment and how to use it.\n\nAh, I think I wasn't clear. I _love_ the \"getting better at escaping danger\" aspect of modern FPS and RTS games. I think they are superbly designed, but I find this aspect severely lacking in every open world sandbox style game with PvP I've played.\n\nI'm not trying to be difficult. I apologize if I seem unappreciative or dismissive of the games you've suggested. Yes, I am looking for a particular type of game that probably doesn't exist: \"Like a wargame, but where you create and play act a unique character. Like D&D, but more like a wargame in that there is player vs player conflict.\" Perhaps even where the conflict isn't the objective, but is a baked in part of the world.\n\nThis showed up in my Facebook feed last night: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/112107051/itherverse-fantasy-turn-based-game-dandd-5e-rpg-pl\n\nI might have to back it.",
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      "author": "lextenebris",
      "body": "> These sound like interesting games, but they make no mention of one key component I'm after: play acting the character.\n\nWhy should they? That's not the job of the mechanics. It's not the job of the system. It's not even the job of the platform.\n\nIt's your job.\n\nYour job is to play the character as you can see if it. Your job is to come up with that character, not have it handed to you. Especially in the context of a simulation, the responsibility for characterization is on you. It can't be anywhere else.\n\n> I checked ME forums, and the Roleplaying forum is a ghost town. I suppose I could create my own server and go around trying to recruit people to play on it.\n\nIf you want the kind of role-play you seem to demand – that's your choice. Find a group, put it together, find people interested.\n\nI'm trying to figure out how anyone could provide a game that would satisfy you, here. You don't want to create the character but you want to create the character. You want to drop into a setting that already exists, but you don't like the settings that exist. You want architectural freedom, but you don't want others to have the advantages of that architectural freedom. And you want things to be dangerous, but you don't want to actually be in danger.\n\nStop me if you've heard this one.\n\n> If \"getting better at escaping danger\" isn't a skill a player can develop as they play (as it is with all decent RTS and FPS games), then the game is doomed to fail.\n\nAnd, oh yes, somehow having a labyrinthine abstract interface which doesn't actually represent the environment and doesn't give someone enough information to make decisions about which way would be more or less advantageous, and thus give them feedback in order to become \"getting better at escaping danger\" is superior to literally immersing the player in the first person perspective or third person perspective of their avatar representation and basing their \"skill at getting better at escaping danger\" to learning the actual environment and how to use it.\n\nAre you sure you actually want to play a game?\n\nAre you sure you actually thought about what you want?\n\nBecause from the point of view of a designer and someone who has no small experience of the industry, you have been repeatedly contradictory about stating what you want and what gratifies you in play.\n\nIf I didn't know better, I would be forced to observe that you don't actually want to play a new game. You want to play a game that you've already been playing, and which no longer really exists because other people have been playing it, and you have no interest in actually learning or immersing yourself in a new thing. You want the same old thing, despite the fact that that same old thing isn't really what anyone else wants, and rather than learn the new thing and what it's good at, you'd prefer not to because it might sully your memories (inconsistent and self-contradictory as they are) of the old thing.\n\nNot to put too fine a point on it, but you are the kind of player that designers deliberately avoid catering to. Nothing will ever be good enough. Nothing will ever provide you the pleasure you want. That's because the experiences that you had are the best ones that you ever want to have.\n\n> The Darksun setting of D&D is my kind of game. It has been ever since it first came out. If I could somehow create a multiplayer version of that, with players actually play acting the different factions, I'd be in heaven.\n\nAs we say in the business, \"see to it, fancy lad!\"\n\nThere are plenty of open world survival games. Some of them are in fantasy settings. Very few of them are in high magic fantasy settings, because anytime you introduce high magic – intelligent people start to wonder, \"why is it that you have this problem which is easily solved by this magical effect on a daily basis?\"\n\nThis is a problem for you, because of all the things that you've expressed that you want, a consistent setting is going to be the hardest thing to acquire. Especially in the context of \"a simulation.\"\n\nYou have a choice: detail which leverages the day-to-day activity of existing in the setting, which is going to require a ridiculous amount of work by the developers to just cover the details of mundane existence – adding on significant magic is a task almost no one is up to and certainly no developer is up to doing so on a purely systemic mechanical basis, or you can focus on narrative verisimilitude – but that would require you to give up all of the \"simulationist\" mechanics because they don't lead to narrative verisimilitude. They lead to mechanical verisimilitude.\n\nSo here's what you need to do – first find people. Find people to play with. When you find those people, find out what they're interested in playing. Except that they are probably not going to be interested in the same things that you are and you're going to have to make compromises. And then play something that exists.\n\nAlternately, you can just not play.\n\nThose are the choices on the table. That's what you've got.",
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      "body": "Coincidentally, I did play Wurm Online about 10 years ago with some online friends. We played quite a bit until someone came into our camp and killed everyone with a board. Turns out there was some kind of bug where the amount of damage you could do was related to your skill with that item. Weapon skills accumulated very slowly, but this guy was either a lumberjack or carpenter which translated into him being a one man army when wielding his board. We all quit that week.\n\nThese sound like interesting games, but they make no mention of one key component I'm after: play acting the character.\n\nI checked ME forums, and the Roleplaying forum is a ghost town. I suppose I could create my own server and go around trying to recruit people to play on it. \n\nLife is Feudal seems to be going the route of most poorly designed open pvp worlds--making the world safer and PvP more rare. \n\nAs I'm sure you know, PvP has to be baked into the design for it to work. I think CF just got extremely lucky in how MUDs are naturally a bit of a puzzle to get from point A to point B, and there is no way to move and keep your eye on another person at the same time. That makes chasing people down in real time challenging, and gives a slight advantage to a person fleeing combat as they only have to know where they are going. That way you can have combat, it doesn't always end in death, but extremely talented chasers can still secure kills. \n\nThere are other pieces to the pie, but I don't know of any graphical open world game that even gets this much right. If \"getting better at escaping danger\" isn't a skill a player can develop as they play (as it is with all decent RTS and FPS games), then the game is doomed to fail. For most of the open world sandbox style MMOs I've played, \"getting better at escaping danger\" usually meant not leaving the safe zones. There were no other options. It's very sad, and poorly designed.\n\n\n\n> The more I think about it, the more I come to believe that you are at the core demographic, the absolute target, for the recent explosion in \"survival simulator\" multiplayer games.\n\nThe Darksun setting of D&D is my kind of game. It has been ever since it first came out. If I could somehow create a multiplayer version of that, with players actually play acting the different factions, I'd be in heaven.",
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      "author": "lextenebris",
      "body": "> Do you know of any fantasy simulations that have these?\n\nI have returned from outer darkness, i.e. the consumption of Life, and am ready to finish up my ideas.\n\nIt occurred to me while I was writing the original response that there are two games which market themselves a very similarly and which almost exactly fit your requested parameters. \"Almost\" because neither of them occur in a high fantasy world, but rather a relatively brutal low fantasy/true medieval simulation.\n\n[**Wurm Online**](https://www.wurmonline.com/) is probably the hard-core pioneer of this particular genre, the \"Medieval Simulator MMO.\" In it you create a character, customize his appearance within some fairly clear parameters, pick some very low starting skills, and then get dumped into a world which may have an established architecture of individuals who have already carved up the land to split into rival duchies and be a constant low-level war, or you may be dumped onto a very new island, as one of the first pioneers, set to go out, explore the wilderness, and do your best to survive while everyone else does the same.\n\n[**Life is Feudal MMO**](https://lifeisfeudal.com/) does much the same – in fact, they really don't have that much differentiating them. Both of them have a similarly awkward UI, skills which are all about micro advancement (that is to say, you advance your Wood Chopping skill on every chop of a log), both hinge on the fact that everything in the world is player built and player driven, and the big selling point is very much as you describe CF – it's PvP all the time and your best bet is to cooperate with others in order to seek mutual protection.\n\nI'm going to be honest, these games are not for *me.* Because of the micro advancement architecture and the focus on dealing with other people, it's kind of like Hell. But for you – it fulfills every checkbox on the list. If you are looking for a deep simulation rather than a more traditionally structured game with inherent narrative, these two games are for you.\n\nIf you're looking for something a little more in the space between, there is [**Medieval Engineers**](http://www.medievalengineers.com/), by the same people that put together [**Space Engineers**](http://www.spaceengineersgame.com/). Rather than a big shared MMO universe, ME is all about running an individual server with a much smaller population. It also focuses more on the actual engineering of things in order to solve problems rather than micro advancement on skill lists.\n\nI like ME a lot, but it speaks to my inherent need to mechanically engineer things.\n\nIf we were looking for games which very much fit into the old LP/MUD style of play? The first two on this list would be dead center and exact. There is no story except what you make, there is no construction except what other people make, there is a constant threat from and by other people, and that's the whole game. Any stories which are told occur entirely post hoc.\n\nThat seems to be more what you're looking for.\n\nAlso in that space, though not so directly, would be [**ARK: Survival Evolved**](http://store.steampowered.com/app/346110/ARK_Survival_Evolved/), which involves starting in a very primitive technological level (including taming dinosaurs), but working your way up to advanced technology and dealing with other people along the way.\n\nThe more I think about it, the more I come to believe that you are at the core demographic, the absolute target, for the recent explosion in \"survival simulator\" multiplayer games. At least the ones which occur over a longer period of time, involve a lot more dealing with other people than you would find in something like PUBG, and which focus on the simulation/day-to-day aspect of the actual game.",
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      "body": "To me it is one of those things that I never would have assumed until I actually tried it - I definitely thought I was in the \"more options during char gen the better\" camp, and kind of scoffed at the old school random char gen methods.  Then I actually tried some out in the past decade as I became something of a student of the history of D&D and I quickly realized that in *practice*, there are some really amazing benefits to random char gen.  Not for everyone of course, but coupled with a rules-lite system that allows most of the \"character customization\" to come just from role playing and improvising within the very minimal guidelines of the rules, random char gen has led to the best gaming experiences of my life.  Certainly I play all sorts of styles and am not slavishly adhering to this method at all times and for all purposes, but it was just kind of eye opening to realize that sometimes constricting choices actually spurs creativity, and not the opposite.",
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      "author": "lextenebris",
      "body": "> The question I just asked myself, after reading what you posted above, is this: How would one 'win' a game like I am trying to envision? What is the objective? Then I thought of CF, and realize there is no way to 'win' CF.\n\nProblem: you created yourself and insoluble question by the choice of question. You need to go deeper into the question of experience.\n\nWhy is \"winning the game\" important?\n\nYou'll note that is a very different question than \"why is winning important?\" We know why winning is important, because success provides gratification, gratification provides pleasure, pleasure is why people play the game. There are other sources of gratification in gameplay, but succeeding at things is a really good one to target.\n\nBut why \"winning the game?\" Is it because having a narrow timescale makes it possible to get more people to buy in to the experience? That's a reasonable point of view. Is it because setting goals and achieving them makes for good breakpoints in storytelling? That's certainly true.\n\nMost traditionally architected role-playing games, tabletop or computer, have a definitionally driven top-down story pressure to \"get to the end.\" It's the kind of thinking that led to \"railroading\" being such a big deal in the reports of game players. Railroading is just the GM deciding that no matter what happens, the story and the characters goes \"this way.\" It blatantly disenfranchises the decisions of the players. That's exactly, and all, that it does – and why it is such a loathsome technique, because the players really don't have anything else.\n\nBut let's go with simulation. There is a lot of discussion around the question of whether simulations constitute games in any case. That lack of closure, that lack of \"bringing things to an end,\" even on a chapter/mission/achievement basis may certainly disqualify them from being seen as games in any traditional sense.\n\nHowever, custom character development and play acting in a dangerous, war-torn fantasy world with D&D, wargaming, FPS, RTS, or civilization-style direct competition.\n\nThe problem is that you are acting at the wrong scale. You want custom character development, which implies that you want a single (or a squad, if were talking about the whole party) character which can make meaningful decisions on a regular basis and have some effect on the world.\n\nThat is particularly hard for a videogame, because scalar affects on the functioning of the world which go hand-in-hand with your ability to make decisions in an open world environment don't really come together.\n\nOn the tabletop, check out **Warrior Heroes** which are referred to in my previous reply. The idea is that you create a character who inhabits a place in the world, and the mechanics are geared toward you having adventures, meeting people, getting entangled and things, and adding to your group – making contacts, working your way up. If you pick up **Warband**, you can continue working your way up from just a guy out fighting against the local constabulary or invaders, making yourself more and more powerful in a real way, pulling in more hangers on, and working your way up to being responsible even as king.\n\nWhich reminds me, I need to poke Ed and see if he's going to put **Warbands** back up on the store.\n\nIf D&D had a strategic layer, that would possibly be useful to you in this particular context. But once scale moves beyond your local individual, that character whom you customized and made personal becomes less important – by definition.\n\nIt's back to the question of density of important decisions. There is only so much time, and only so many decisions can be made in that given time, so you spend your time developing the part of the game where people will spend their time making decisions. And you have different required decision densities for different kinds of play – and often the twain shall not meet.\n\nThis is why you find modern systems making combat mechanics more like the broader resolution methods used in social conflicts, and thus move the rate of decision-making for combat scenes into something closer to social scenes, rather than the other way around – which never worked very well for combat in the first place.\n\n(I have a few more ideas, too, but Life(tm) demands its due. This evening, then.)",
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      "body": "> The problem for a designer is that there are a lot of direct conflict decisions to make moment to moment, and role-playing choices aren't nearly as dense – they require a lot more set up, a lot more development, and a lot more time for payoff. If you put them both in your game, side-by-side, then your perceptual profile of gameplay turns into a lot of conflict decisions, all of which – per your request – carry a lot of weight, and only a few role-playing decisions which may carry a lot of weight individually, but happen too rarely for that to feel like a part of the game that the people who are looking for role-playing can really get into.\n\nThis is a really great insight. I have done some brainstorming myself the past few months, trying to imagine character play acting and strategy in a table top game. I was even giving myself an additional challenge of trying to do it as a single session game. Everything I could think of felt like either the play acting was a light add-on to the combat grid mechanics, or the combat was a light add-on to the deeper play acting. (I am very intrigued by Gloom though.)\n\nThe question I just asked myself, after reading what you posted above, is this: How would one 'win' a game like I am trying to envision? What is the objective? Then I thought of CF, and realize there is no way to 'win' CF. \n\nIf I recall correctly, it is like SimCity where Will Wright said he had hard time explaining to publishers that there was no way to win. There was no end to the game. CF, like SimCity, is a simulation. That's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for a fantasy simulation. I want to combine custom character development and play acting in a dangerous, war-torn fantasy world with D&D, wargaming, FPS, RTS, or Civilization-style direct competition.\n\nI'll still try to think of ways to do this on the tabletop, but it may be better suited for computer/consoles. Do you know of any fantasy simulations that have these?",
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