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      "author": "steemitboard",
      "permlink": "steemitboard-notify-cnacws-20200301t055317000z",
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      "body": "Congratulations @cnacws! You received a personal award!\n\n<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/70x70/http://steemitboard.com/@cnacws/birthday2.png</td><td>Happy Birthday! - You are on the Steem blockchain for 2 years!</td></tr></table>\n\n<sub>_You can view [your badges on your Steem Board](https://steemitboard.com/@cnacws) and compare to others on the [Steem Ranking](https://steemitboard.com/ranking/index.php?name=cnacws)_</sub>\n\n\n###### [Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1) to get one more award and increased upvotes!",
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      "author": "steemitboard",
      "permlink": "steemitboard-notify-cnacws-20190301t062817000z",
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      "body": "Congratulations @cnacws! You received a personal award!\n\n<table><tr><td>https://steemitimages.com/70x70/http://steemitboard.com/@cnacws/birthday1.png</td><td>Happy Birthday! - You are on the Steem blockchain for 1 year!</td></tr></table>\n\n<sub>_[Click here to view your Board](https://steemitboard.com/@cnacws)_</sub>\n\n\n**Do not miss the last post from @steemitboard:**\n<table><tr><td><a href=\"https://steemit.com/carnival/@steemitboard/carnival-2019\"><img src=\"https://steemitimages.com/64x128/http://i.cubeupload.com/rltzHT.png\"></a></td><td><a href=\"https://steemit.com/carnival/@steemitboard/carnival-2019\">Carnival Challenge - Collect badge and win 5 STEEM</a></td></tr></table>\n\n###### [Vote for @Steemitboard as a witness](https://v2.steemconnect.com/sign/account-witness-vote?witness=steemitboard&approve=1) and get one more award and increased upvotes!",
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      "body": "For me it is about eliminating rent seeking. To make the economy more meritocratic and increase the economic output. This is done by taxing economic rent and use the money to help people get education and start their own business. Basic income financed by economic rent does all that without creating a destructive marginal  tax/effect.",
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      "body": "And while I feel I'm an anarchist (more like an agorist), that is MY biggest issue... how to support people who can't work, or can't work full time (like me).\n\nNot that the gov't actually GIVES money to people in need because their formula for giving money to people is IDIOTIC, what they give to people is so little that there's NO WAY to live off of just over $1,100/month. You'd have to make money some other way to even pay the bills, let along have ANY kind of life that is normal.\n\nThere are MANY homeless people who can't even qualify for money because one person in the family makes a measly $16-18/hr. which is NOT enough to pay for 2 adults & a baby, PLUS pay child or spousal support.\n\nI found out the fucking gov't looks at his GROSS income, NOT his NET.\n\nLike I said, they are either stupid, or they do this on purpose so they don't have to pay out. I believe it's the latter.\n\nMyself I have health issues & can't work full time because I don't have enough energy. Whenever I try to work 40 hours, I'm either making too little or I burn myself out.\n\nMany seniors can't work because they are ill.\n\nWhile I'm ALL for freedom, these to me are the BIGGEST issues & SHOULD be discussed, but every time I bring it up to anarchists they JUST ignore me like little children.\n\nAnd I don't give a SHIT about the roads LOL who cares about fucking roads. How we can support ourselves is WAY more important than roads.\n\nAs it is, in the US most of the roads are in a total state of disrepair & there IS a gov't right now.\n\nI really don't believe that anarchists are serious about freedom.\n\nI've reached out to a few over the last 3 years & not one of them has ever written me back or wanted to have a SERIOUS discussion about this.\n\nALL talk & no action.",
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      "body": "Yes indeed! We must start simply so as not to intimidate others who might otherwise be open to processing these ideas. Do not be in a hurry to show off your intricate knowledge of Austrian Economics and Free Market Capitalism. The time will come. :-)",
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      "body": "HI there.\n  \nWell I can say that the statement I make at 7:30 is backed up by several studies ([example](http://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/1814426/accessibility-firearms-risk-suicide-homicide-victimization-among-household-members-systematic) of one,) and I can also say there's plenty of common ground that people on both sides of this debate can come together on, for example roughly [90% of Americans support background checks](http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/oct/03/chris-abele/do-90-americans-support-background-checks-all-gun-/) (including the vast majority of NRA members.) The support for these policies are there, but the political will isn't.",
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      "parent_author": "healthranger",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -88,18 +88,30 @@\n Germany \n-do\n+and other plac\n es have \n@@ -136,12 +136,81 @@\n ng  \n-laws\n+and %5BStrafgesetzbuch laws%5D(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strafgesetzbuch)\n  tha\n",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "I read YouTube's policy, and I don't think it will affect video games at all, HOWEVER, Germany does have Gewaltverherrlichung  laws that prohibit glorification of violence, and it does outlaw most of the people shooting games.\n\n<center>![](http://full30.com/cdn/c/b/aeaa6ac6611f7640a0a318c225cbfb39.jpg)\n</center>\n<center>\nHickok45 on Full30.com\n</center>\nThere is already a functioning website for guns that is very popular: [full30.com](https://www.full30.com/channels/hickok45).   Many of the big channels on YouTube that deal with guns are already on Full30.",
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      "permlink": "re-johnvibes-an-introduction-to-nonviolent-communication-selection-from-my-book-20180325t171437817z",
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      "body": "I am a big fan of Marshall Rosenberg, and nonviolent communication (NVC) is the central part of my approach.  I'm new on Steemit, but I am building resources and guides to see if I can help people learn a type of NVC that is adjusted for political discussion.  For example, I give examples of how to [replace subjective evaluations with factual statements about how you feel](https://steemit.com/politics/@cnacws/first-steps-to-productive-conversation-about-government).\n\nWhat I have found is that this approach is best when you are sitting one-on-one with a person.  People in an online chat room do not experience your statement about how you fee in the same way that they feel it when two people are sitting together.  Either way, NVC helps.",
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      "parent_permlink": "re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180325t084755044z",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "Thanks for your response.  I may have more to say but I think we've already hijacked this comment section.  So I'll end here and perhaps we can continue on your own blog. I truly find all of this very interesting!",
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      "body": "> I have a draft of a post to give examples of the mountain of petty regulations and how it affects people. I'll post that eventually.\n\nI've started following you so I'll keep a look out.  What I will say though, already now, is this:  \n\nYou can give all the examples you want but, in my opinion, it only takes one good law to argue against the abolishment of all laws.  If you present me with a mountain of petty regulations, I'll most likely agree that we should remove those specific regulations.  But I won't simply conclude that all laws and regulations should be removed.  For that one good law, I'll still say we keep it.  To me, that's basic logic.  For example, pointing out all the adult human beings in the world is not going to convince me that all human beings are adults.  All it takes is one child to render that argument false.\n\nIf you want to prove that we should remove all laws, focus on the so called \"good laws\".  If you can present a mountain of seemingly good laws and show how they are actually bad then you'll have a better chance of convincing me.  Back to my example, if you explain that all children are actually adults in waiting then maybe I'll start to think of all human beings as adults.  I realize that this is not a very good analogy but hopefully you get my point.\n\n> I actually experience a sense of loss when I pay taxes \n\nWell, I don't so I can't empathize.  And in the absence of empathy, how do you then convince me that taxes are bad?  How do you convince me that your feelings are more important than the benefits I perceive from taxation.  I'm not even saying taxes are definitely a good thing.  It's just my perception.  But how do you change that perception?\n\n> Also note, another user posted some resources.\n\nYes, they've been very informative and helpful.  I'll also check out the other resources you've mentioned.  Thanks.",
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      "author": "cnacws",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "so i think we are on the same page for regulations that outlaw cookies and ice cream (personal health risk), but your concern was that part of the effect of jaywalking was harm to others (risk of causing car crash). \n\nWhen risk to others becomes subjectively high, I would not complain if somebody took action to stop the person who creates the risk.  Example: guy drives drunk at very high speed past a school when lots of kids are in the area.  I would not interfere with somebody taking action to fix that problem.  \n\nAt some point, I can understand somebody who wants to support government to have a forcible tax to pay cops who enforce only extreme violations, like the drunk guy speeding past a school.  I would not vote for such a tax, but if I could negotiate with statists and chop down the mountain of bogus laws and leave only the laws against the most egregious things, I would probably accept that as a compromise.\n\nAs for supporting a law that outlaws all jaywalking.... NO!  I would oppose that.  I know how to cross a street, and there is no evidence that a politician is morally superior to me and has some special authority to control my peaceful behavior of walking across the street when it is clear.\n\nNote that if the pedestrian causes and accident or blocks traffic, I would not complain if somebody took action to correct the problem.  Any pedestrian who gets hit in the street would be liable in any negotiation of a settlement.  I might put \"crossing a highway\" in the egregious crime bucket if the speed limit is high and the road crowded.\n\nAs for me shitting in a public street, obviously I don't do that (too often).  I commented on your other reply about the book Defending the Undefendable.  Walter Block argued in that book that there shouldn't be any public land or public streets, so he applauds people who litter because they are heroically taking a jab at the state for having state land.  I don't applaud litterbugs.\n\nIf I had to ponder about the distant future, I might say that tiny side streets could be owned by homeowners associations and arterial roads maintained by a voluntary union of businesses and residents.  Businesses that don't chip in would be on the shit list posted in public.  That voluntary nonprofit organizations would \"own\" the main streets and could legitimately take action against people littering on the street.  Again, I would not predict that this will happen in the USA without an apocalypse.\n\nSomebody replied to your other post about 'peaceful people.'  I am referring to people who do not initiate violence against others. Think of a grandmother being arrested for walking across a crosswalk and not keeping to the right side of the crosswalk (this is actually a law where I live).\n\nDepending on your view of jaywalking, we might be closer to agreement.  After this I'd like to address social welfare programs and positive obligations (I have no evidence to suggest that any positive obligations exist in the real world, but you could have guessed that).",
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      "permlink": "re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-fear-of-voluntaryism-due-to-statist-thinking-20180325t080616100z",
      "title": "",
      "body": ">  I don't want to appear as a troll. \n\nYou are not a troll.  I like when people tolerate my pedantic psychobabble.\n\n> The statement assumes that I already agree that peaceful people are currently being forced to do things against their will\n\nYes.  It is a problem whenever people from two very different perspectives try to communicate.  In in-person conversations, I would focus on getting people to recognize that people respond differently to different stimuli (some people like country music, and some do not), and that I actually experience a sense of loss when I pay taxes (including lots of business tax and fees) and that I legitimately feel constrained by regulation  (business regulations, firearm regulations, employment regulations, and thousands of petty regulations that serve no other purpose than to allow police to stop somebody).   I have a draft of a post to give examples of the mountain of petty regulations and how it affects people.  I'll post that eventually.\n\nAlso note, another user posted some resources.  Those resources and nearly all others that you will find in philosophy and political forums on the Internet are derived from a particular brand of Libertarian theory that was recently (past couple decades) popularized by the [Mises Institute](https://mises.org/).  I reject their entire paradigm of analysis, called [praxeology](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praxeology) which is explicitly anti-scientific.  I criticize their methods, but some of their ideas might get you thinking.  Try looking at [Walter Block](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Block) and his book [Defending the Undefendable](http://austrian-library.s3-website-us-east-1.amazonaws.com/books/Walter%20Block/Defending%20the%20Undefendable.pdf).  I disagree with much of what he says, but he raises some interesting questions.",
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      "author": "adigitalife",
      "permlink": "re-cnacws-fear-of-voluntaryism-due-to-statist-thinking-20180324t230736729z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "I know nothing about voluntaryism so I've ready your first 3 or 4 posts plus this one.  I find it fascinating. \n\n> When statists hear about voluntaryism, a typical response is \"That's stupid. How do you think society can function without a government?\"\n\nYep. I suppose I'm what you would call a statist.  \n\n> A possible short response would be: \"If we move closer to the principles of voluntaryism, the biggest change would be that people would no longer see any need to force peaceful people to do things against their will.\n\nAs a statist who doesn't understand voluntaryism and, in fact, only just found out that he's a statist (whatever that means), I don't think that response works for me.  The statement assumes that I already agree that peaceful people are currently being forced to do things against their will and therefore moving closer to the principles of voluntaryism would be a good thing.  But, I might not necessarily see anyone being forced to do anything.  You know, statist mindset and everything.\n\nOf course, I realize that I'm not the intended audience of your posts.  I'm not a voluntaryist trying to learn how to convince statists to change their minds.  On the other hand, what better way to teach other voluntaryists than to actually show how it's done by using me as an example? :)\n\nIn any case, I don't want to appear as a troll.  I'm just truly curious.  So if I'm not welcome, just say so.  I'm not a sensitive statist. ;) Or, perhaps you can simply point me to other resources on the internet where I can learn more.\n\nIf I may make a suggestion though.  When communicating with statists who are unfamiliar with voluntaryism, I recommend not using jargon.  Or at least define them before you start using them.  For example, I've never heard of the term \"peaceful people\" before.  It sounds very specific and I don't know what it means exactly.  So when you say \"no longer see any need to force peaceful people\" does that mean that it's still okay to force non-peaceful people?  And what's the difference?",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -426,17 +426,16 @@\n s my car\n-e\n .  Or, I\n",
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      "body": "I wish we would have continued the discussion from my second edit above:\n\n> laws that are implemented for your own good (like sugary drinks in New York) infringe on a person's liberty and I'm not in favor of those. Laws that are implemented for the good of others, those I'm in favor of.\n\nSo...\n\n> I make my decisions about my risk or enjoyment or schedule, not you.\n\nGo ahead.  I don't care.  But if I run you over it damages my care.  Or, I might decide to be nice and swerve to avoid you which may end up physically harming me or others.  Yes, this is a hypothetical but a very probable one.  Have you ever tried crossing an interstate?  You think it's only yourself you're risking?\n\n> Do you see the similarity between the cookies and the jaywalking?\n\nAbsolutely not.  For the reason I explained above.\n\n> if i shit on your car, same thing. If I shit on your lawn, same thing.\n\nBut what if you shit all over the street in front of my driveway.  That's no longer my property so fair play?\n\n> Perhaps what you mean is that you want rules in place so that peaceful strangers act the way that you subjectively want them to act.\n\nNot necessarily.  I don't care how people act as long as they don't harm others directly or *indirectly*. Voluntaryist rules seem to only account for direct cause and effect.  Meaning, you can't harm me directly but if it's indirectly then it's fair play.  Like the street crossing scenario.  Your crossing the street is not an action towards me directly.  But if I die because of it, well, too bad.\n\nI think this is where we clearly differ.  \n\nBy the way, you keep saying \"peaceful people\" as if it's supposed to mean something.  What does it mean?  What's the difference between a peaceful person and non-peaceful person?  Are non-peaceful people treated differently?  Do they have different rules and what you're talking about only applies to \"peaceful people\" specifically?",
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      "permlink": "re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t190152381z",
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      "body": "> All hypothetical.\n\nYour anti-jaywalking law (and other laws against peaceful people) allow for NO liberty under any hypothetical.  That is the point of liberty: I make my decisions about my risk or enjoyment or schedule, not you.\n\n> By not crossing at the properly designated place, you could get run over \n\nYes.  By eating cookies, you could get fat and get diabetes and kidney failure.  Do you see the similarity between the cookies and the jaywalking?  It is not up to you to determine the risk that I take.  Let's assume that I'm not obstructing traffic--if I get run over, it's my fault for being in the road and any damages can be taken from my estate.\n\n>  there's no toilet where it's conveniently ...\n\nIf I destroy your car by spray painting it, that is graffiti:  a crime and an act that harms a peaceful person.  if i shit on your car, same thing.  If I shit on your lawn, same thing.\n\nwhen i asked what you would do if i do cross the street in the middle of the road...\n\n>  I'll take your photo and publicly shame you.   \n\nTADA!!!!  You just had a voluntaryist thought!!! Congratulations!!!   \n\n> Maybe send the photo to the authorities and you pay a fine.\n\n:^(  you just had a statist thought  :^(\n\nOK, let's get real.  If I cross the street, and the cop says stop, and i don't stop and I keep walking and walking and walking, there is going to be one of the following: ticket, jail, physical confrontation, shoot out.  \n\n> the rules still need to be in place.\n\nPerhaps what you mean is that you want rules in place so that peaceful strangers act the way that you subjectively want them to act.  I [struggled for 6 months](https://steemit.com/voluntaryism/@cnacws/my-story-liberal-academic-environmentalist-voluntaryist-part-i) trying to make sense of a moral claim vaguely similar to yours.  You are now facing a similar question.  If you go down the rabbit hole, you won't come out the same.",
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      "body": "Yes, I'm sure most politicians believe the deceptions as truth or reality instead, and propagate it thus. Objectivity for sure helps in filtering out the non sense.",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -3261,8 +3261,390 @@\n th that.\n+%0A%0AEdit 2: I will concede this: laws that are implemented for your own good (like sugary drinks in New York) infringe on a person's liberty and I'm not in favor of those.  Laws that are implemented for the good of others, those I'm in favor of.  Why?  Because I don't trust *all* humans to act ethically.  If they all did, then sure, by all means let's get rid of all rules and laws.\n",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -2807,16 +2807,18 @@\n iety as \n+a \n whole ne\n",
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      "title": "",
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      "permlink": "re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t175322349z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -3027,8 +3027,237 @@\n our own.\n+%0A%0AEdit:  I forgot another option.  You can of course work to change the society you're currently living.  If it were me, I'd work towards removing all stupid laws.  But if you want to remove *all* laws, well, good luck with that.\n",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "> I think you are thinking of the end result as opposed to the entire process. \n\nI'm not sure I follow.\n\n> greater harm for those who don't obey (jail, shoot-out with the cops, police brutality for someone who doesn't respond quick enough)\n\nTo me, that sounds like you're thinking of the end result (a highly improbably one).  I don't know about the US but I'm pretty sure that in most other countries there won't be a shoot-out with the cops for jaywalking.\n\n> It could also mean being late for work or not having time to play with the kids or not having time to see grandma on her death bed before she dies.\n\nAll hypothetical.  We can go either way with hypotheticals.  By not crossing at the properly designated place, you could get run over and die even before grandma does.  Not only that, the accident causes the driver to miss seeing his grandma before she dies. We can justify anything we want with hypotheticals.\n\nBesides, it's not the fault of the street-crossing that it's not located conveniently.  That's the job of the city planner or the council or whoever is responsible.  If there's no toilet where it's conveniently accessible to you, should we just abandon toilets altogether and let everyone \"go\" wherever they want?  After all, it's their liberty, right?  And they're not harming any other human beings.\n\n> Restrictive laws made on hasty lack of consideration could easily abound if they are tolerated.\n\nI agree.  We shouldn't tolerate laws made on hasty lack of consideration.  But that doesn't mean we should abandon all laws altogether simply because some of them are idiotic.  Why not just get rid of idiotic laws?  \n\n> As for escalation, how exactly would you prevent me from crossing in the middle of the street?\n\nI won't.  Maybe I'll take your photo and publicly shame you.  Maybe send the photo to the authorities and you pay a fine.  Or not.  That's the thing.  You can't force anyone to do anything.  It's about rules and consequences.  If you don't want to follow the rules then you face the consequences.  Or if you're lucky, maybe you don't.  But the rules still need to be in place.\n\nAgain, same with taxes.  You don't *have to* pay them but there may be consequences if you don't.\n\n> *I should probably clarify that I include \"loss of liberty\" as a type of \"harm\"*\n\nOkay, now we're getting somewhere.  I think this is where we fundamentally disagree.  You see loss of liberty as harmful.  In my case, I don't see the world in black and white.  To me, *some* instances of loss of liberty *can* be harmful.  Other instances not.  It always depends.\n\nIf it depends, how do we decide which is which?  Well, that's up to the society to decide by implement rules and laws.  Some won't be happy with them but tough luck.  That's life.  I don't subscribe to the idea that society as whole needs to cater to every single individual.  Because that's impossible and will only lead to complete chaos.\n\nAnd again, if you don't like the society you're living in then either move to another one or start your own.",
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  "trx_id": "bf25a5e71981703ebe5bbe5bd9c3a1ca81c91a1a",
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      "parent_author": "",
      "parent_permlink": "voluntaryism",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "fear-of-voluntaryism-due-to-statist-thinking",
      "title": "Fear of Voluntaryism due to Statist Thinking",
      "body": "<center>\n![anarchy-152588_640.png](https://steemitimages.com/DQmZv3ir7fDbAmPEBNsQo9Uo69X2CMaWfg5ir6nqxNFvwhG/anarchy-152588_640.png)</center>\n<center>\nPicture from [pixabay](https://pixabay.com/en/anarchy-riot-violence-brutal-force-152588/)\n</center>\n\nWhen statists hear about voluntaryism, a typical response is \"That's stupid.  How do you think society can function without a government?\"  When statists imagine a society without government, what they are imagining is a society of statists living without a state.  That is not the intended image.\n\nA possible short response would be: \"If we move closer to the principles of voluntaryism, the biggest change would be that people would no longer see any need to force peaceful people to do things against their will.  People are resilient and can find ways to form voluntary associations to serve their needs.  Many of the problems that you perceive today are things that you (or future people) would not perceive as problems later.\"\n\nStatists start with the perspective that people \"need to\" act in a certain way that generally corresponds to the laws proposed by their political party.  Those beliefs are often contrary to the nonaggression principle, like putting parents in jail for not sending their kids to a state-approved school.  If there is a lack of police with guns to force people to live that way, the statist would feel like there is something wrong.   The real change is a change in thinking to respect the autonomy of others and to stop dwelling on what you can achieve by using force against peaceful people--people are not your pawns to create your vision of community.  People are not pawns to be manipulated to force everyone to live according to your risk preferences or aesthetic sense.\n\nI see part of the challenge as a  [perspective-taking problem](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJ0qJTLohM).  In other words, some people or so accustomed to being told what to do that they see nothing wrong with complying.  It is difficult for them to understand how loss of liberty feels to other people.  They don't see any problem with having to pay licensing fees and complete tax paperwork in every county where you operate your small business.  More on this later.\n\n-----\n# About This Blog and This Post\n\nThis blog is mostly about finding ways to communicate so that we can reach a mutual understanding and agree to not harm peaceful people.  \n\nPlease resteem!  There is more content coming, so follow me!  [https://steemit.com/@cnacws](https://steemit.com/@cnacws).",
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      "parent_author": "adigitalife",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t125907845z",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t152029488z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "> If I force adults to cross the road only at pedestrian crossings, how does that harm them?\n\n* loss of liberty\n* greater harm for those who don't obey (jail, shoot-out with the cops, police brutality for someone who doesn't respond quick enough)\n* lack of an objective basis for you to dictate what I do against my will versus me dictating what you do against your will (causing mental anguish or fuel for retaliation)\n\nI think you are thinking of the end result as opposed to the entire process.  If the mayor of New York outlaws sugary drinks greater than 16 ounces, or outlaws fried foods, you could say that everyone will be healthier and that there is a \"net benefit.\"  Such laws prevent people from doing what they want to do.  That is loss of liberty.  Nobody \"needs\" a cookie or ice cream, but it is a loss of liberty when those things are outlawed and people want them.  Would it really \"harm\" you if I forced you to wear a hijab or a skirt?  How about if I prevented you from wearing a hijab or a skirt?  I say it is loss of liberty, and that constitutes harm the way I have been describing it. \n\nIn the street-crossing example, there are places near me where it is a mile to walk the long way (1/4 mile to the corner, then 1/4 back to your destination, then repeat when you come home) vs crossing the road in the middle.  The \"loss\" might be 20 minutes for one person, or an hour for somebody who can't walk quickly.  It could also mean being late for work or not having time to play with the kids or not having time to see grandma on her death bed before she dies.\n\nBased on my prior paragraph, I would say another \"harm\" is establishing a pattern of behavior in which people pass laws based on failure to consider liberty or a tendency to confuse \"I don't see any reason to stop controlling your behavior\" with \"there is no reason to stop controlling your behavior.\"  Does that make sense?  I say this because your question indicated that you see no harm in preventing someone from crossing in the middle of the street, but I suspect that now that you thought about it, you can understand some \"adverse effects\" of such a rule or similar rules.  I don't know your final ruling on this type of laws.  Restrictive laws made on hasty lack of consideration could easily abound if they are tolerated.\n\nSome people don't mind being micromanaged by others (e.g., being told that they are not allowed to eat cookies and ice cream due to the health  risk).  Others do mind.  It is a [perspective-taking exercise](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDJ0qJTLohM) to understand how others experience life.  Some people are better than others and understanding the perspective of others.\n\nAs for escalation, how exactly would you prevent me from crossing in the middle of the street?  I start to cross the street, you say \"don't cross here,\" I start to cross, then what?  Do you feel justified in escalating to a knife fight if I fail to comply with your ethical idea or a law that says I can't cross at that spot?  What's the harm then?  Do you just blame the victim for not complying and feel justified in whatever follows?\n\n*I should probably clarify that I include \"loss of liberty\" as a type of \"harm\" at the top of these posts.*\n\nAs for letting the victim define harm, the words above are a reason why: because an observer might not know what the victim perceives as harm, so let the victim define it.  This is absolutely essential for anything that I would view as ethical or prosocial behavior.  Religious laws are not based on this idea, they, like you, believe they can determine the correct action without any input from the victim.\n\n>  being asked to play by certain rules constitutes as forceful harm then one should probably find another game to play.\n\nother games: try to get the person to understand that loss of liberty=harm; move to another town (has no effect where I live); shoot out.  None of these are inconsistent with your actions because you do not respect the autonomy of others and see yourself as in a position of moral superiority that justifies controlling the behavior of others or harming them if they don't comply.",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -1513,16 +1513,324 @@\n e too.%0A%0A\n+So when I say %22Ethical people get to decide what constitutes harm,%22 I'm not saying that only a few select people get to decide.  What I'm really saying is that I don't trust just anyone to define for themselves what constitutes harm.  Otherwise, anything unpleasant to any individual will be called %22harm%22.%0A%0A\n In anoth\n@@ -2318,316 +2318,8 @@\n s.%0A%0A\n-So when I say %22Ethical people get to decide what constitutes harm,%22 I'm not saying that only a few select people get to decide.  What I'm really saying is that I don't trust just anyone to define for themselves what constitutes harm.  Otherwise, anything unpleasant to any individual will be called %22harm%22.%0A%0A\n Woul\n",
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      "author": "adigitalife",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -980,16 +980,212 @@\n  people?\n+  No, I think I it get now.  You're saying that ethical people should not control unethical people against their will.  In other words, unethical people should be allowed to do whatever they want.\n %0A%0A%0ASo no\n",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -1352,17 +1352,17 @@\n id that \n-o\n+i\n f one is\n",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -303,16 +303,17 @@\n  But the\n+n\n  again, \n",
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    {
      "parent_author": "cnacws",
      "parent_permlink": "re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t071614630z",
      "author": "adigitalife",
      "permlink": "re-cnacws-re-adigitalife-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180324t125907845z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "> I usually confine my discussions to sane adults\n\nSure.  If I force adults to cross the road only at pedestrian crossings, how does that harm them?  If I force drivers to stop at a red light, how does that harm them?  There's an endless list of things we force sane adults to do that don't harm them.  But the again, it depends on what you mean by \"harm\".  If I force someone to pay taxes, how does that harm them?  Just because you don't want to do something doesn't necessarily mean that by doing that thing you are harmed.\n\n> I oppose the idea that one person (or group of people) can be morally superior to another in a way that allows one group to control another group against their will (I am talking exclusively about sane adults)\n\nWell, I was just going by your statement:\n\n> Ethical people avoid initiating harm against peaceful people.\n\nAre you suggesting that all sane people are ethical?  Or are you saying that ethical people are not morally superior to unethical people?\n\n\nSo now, back to your statement:\n\n> The person who gets to define the harm is the intended victim\n\nIf anybody and everybody can define harm, do you not see how messy that gets?  Force me to cross the road at a designated place?  No, I don't want to.  That's harming me.  Force me to stop at a red light?  Nope, that's harming me too.\n\nIn another response, you said that of one is not happy with their salary, find another job.  No one is forcing you to accept the salary, right?  So you are free to work somewhere else.  But if you want to work at that particular place, you accept the rules of that place.\n\nHow is that different from taxes?  You don't want to pay taxes, find another place to live where you don't have to pay taxes.  No one is forcing you to pay taxes. But, if you want to live here then these are the rules.\n\nSo when I say \"Ethical people get to decide what constitutes harm,\" I'm not saying that only a few select people get to decide.  What I'm really saying is that I don't trust just anyone to define for themselves what constitutes harm.  Otherwise, anything unpleasant to any individual will be called \"harm\".\n\nWould I pay taxes if I didn't have to?  Nope.  But I do not consider myself a victim for having to pay them either.  Furthermore, I don't consider paying taxes as harmful to me.  They're simply an inconvenience that I need to accept for wanting to live and work here.\n\nTo me, calling someone who doesn't want to pay taxes a \"peaceful person\" and a \"victim\" who is \"harmed\" sounds overly and unnecessarily dramatic.\n\nIf being asked to play by certain rules constitutes as forceful harm then one should probably find another game to play.",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "They will be happiest when all earnings are taken as tax, then distributed in a \"fair & just\" manner. Who will decide what is fair though?\n![Capture.JPG](https://ipfs.busy.org/ipfs/QmWj8SrET9HTfmTCFq88rwfwvTjMgqA7nyvZ2cWzqkGdz3)\nThis will only affect the so called 1% though, not the middle class, lol.  Probably take away the right to  own property too.  So that we can return to true feudalism.",
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      "parent_author": "adigitalife",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t213526851z",
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      "body": "Hi adigitallife,\n\n> Forcing someone to do something doesn't necessarily harm them\n\n> only ethical people should be allowed to define harm. \n\nYour example was of a baby.  I usually confine my discussions to sane adults, then if we have agreement there, we can try to talk about kids.  The two quotes here pertain to a philosophical concept that is important to discuss if there is to be any chance of having constructive dialog among political parties... so I would say that our discussion here has implications far beyond this post.  \n\nBehind the two quotes seems to be a belief that some people are morally superior to others in this regard: (a) the superior people actually know and understand the \"correct\" ethics, morality, or utilitarian calculus, and (b) it is appropriate/morally acceptable/justified for morally superior people to force other people to do (certain kinds of...) things against their will.  Please modify my wording if you have something more accurate to describe your position.\n\nI oppose the idea that one person (or group of people) can be morally superior to another in a way that allows one group to control another group against their will (I am talking exclusively about sane adults).   My argument is a scientific one in which we start with a null hypothesis (meaning that there is no difference between two groups of people) and then we see if there is objective evidence that allows us to reject the null hypothesis and determine that we have high confidence that there is a moral distinction between two people (or groups of people) that allows one to dominate the other legitimately.\n\nThere is a lack of evidence to suggest that there is such a difference between groups.  I say this because there is a lack of evidence to suggest that moral perceptions can be quantified objectively on a scale that mixes unlike things (such as measuring some kind of moral good against loss of liberty). Without an objective measurement scale, there can not be an objective way to measure the moral superiority of one group over another... we would be left with the null hypothesis that all sane adults are on the same moral plane.\n\nKeep in mind, I spent years developing a measure of moral perception, but it is objective only in the sense that it measures one construct along a very specific scale that I defined.  I can not objectively \"weigh\" the moral value of that type of things versus a dissimilar moral construct.\n\nThat's a lot of words, but can you tell me in your own words how you might determine who the \"ethical people\" are or what kind of things they can or can not (justifiably) do to the unwilling masses?\n\nthx",
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      "parent_author": "cnacws",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t175455457z",
      "author": "adigitalife",
      "permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t214327676z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "> Do you believe that failure to abide by positive obligations defined by other people constitue harm?\n\nNot at all.  In fact, I'm very interested to hear why this would constitute harm.\n\n> Do you believe that positive obligations defined by other people are a legitimate reasons to force peaceful people to do things against their will \n\nAbsolutely!  The world would collapse if no one was forced to do anything.  And what do you mean by \"peaceful people\"?",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -475,17 +475,16 @@\n pends on\n-e\n  what yo\n",
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T21:35:27",
  "op": [
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      "parent_author": "cnacws",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t155819660z",
      "author": "adigitalife",
      "permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t213526851z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "> Taxes are involuntary\n\nIs that a bad thing?\n\n> If the person does not volunteer, then you would be harming the person by forcibly taking the money in the form of a tax\n\nDepends on what you mean by \"harm\".  Forcing someone to do something doesn't necessarily harm them.  When my daughter was a baby, I had to force her to take her medicine when she was sick.\n\n> Ethical people avoid initiating harm against peaceful people.\n\nSure, I can believe this idea.  But again, it depends one what you mean by \"ethical people\" and \"peaceful people\".  By my definition, there aren't that many ethical people in the world.  Or at least not enough of them to pay enough taxes voluntarily.\n\n> The person who gets to define the harm is the intended victim\n\nI disagree.  I'd say only ethical people should be allowed to define harm.  Otherwise, \"harm\" is too subjective and it can be whatever.",
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      "author": "tarazkp",
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T17:54:57",
  "op": [
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    {
      "parent_author": "tarazkp",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t170603094z",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t175455457z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "> My first question is, why do you make so many assumptions?\n\nI'm not sure which assumptions you mean.  \n\n> Next, do you expect voluntarism to just be a switch in society with an overnight shift in personal and cultural philosophies?\n\nNo.  I don't have any expectation that the USA (where I live) will ever become voluntaryist at any time (barring an apocalypse), but people can move in the direction of not supporting specific policies that involve the initiation of force against peaceful people.\n\n> Do you make the assumption that the current 1% have managed to amass their wealth without doing any harm?\n\nNo. I do not make a universal claim like that.  If somebody harmed others, then I would not oppose addressing those claims.  I do know people with lots of money who have not harmed others (other than indirectly through their support for the government).  I would not condone harming those people.\n\n> Does 'no harm' mean as long as they didn't break any laws?\n\nGood question.  No.  Laws are guidelines that might point to things to think about, but slavery was once legal, so I do not simply rely on laws.\n\n> Many corporations do harm all over the world as they crush supply chains...\n\n**Now we are getting somewhere!**  You are pointing to specific claims about harm (one organization against another).  I am vaguely familiar with antitrust laws and the logic behind them.   \n\nOur differing views on the harm related to \"crushing a supply chain\" are probably a key point of our differences.  If there are two gas stations in town, one locally owned, and one owned by a giant corporation, and the giant corporation cuts prices below the cost and the other goes out of business, this is against the law in the USA.\n\nI don't see the act of cutting costs an active harm against a competitor.  I see the claim from the locally owned gas station as a demand to the other gas station to change its behavior to benefit the locally owned gas station.  Yes, there is a correlation between the big company slashing prices and sales at the other gas station.  That is how business works.  \n\nThis is why I see the demand from the locally owned gas station as a demand for a positive obligation on the behalf of the big gas company: the act of changing the price on the sign at the big gas station has no physical effect.  The small gas station experience a change only to the degree that fewer customer appear. \n If customers go to the big gas station, that is their free choice to do so.  If the little gas station goes out of business because its prices are higher, that is a consequence of the free choice of consumers.   If a group of people want to get together and buy from local stores, they can do so without forcing others to do so.  \n\nI shop at a locally owned middle eastern market every week, in part to avoid Walmart.  I pay more to do so, but I do it anyway.\n\nIf you want to reach out to people who are not already supporters of big government, you could try making an argument that positive obligations are a justification for using force agains peaceful people.\n\nYou haven't answered the other questions, so I'll make it easier:\n\n**Do you believe that failure to abide by positive obligations defined by other people constitue harm?**\n\n**Do you believe that positive obligations defined by other people are a legitimate reasons to force peaceful people to do things against their will (e.g, pay a tax, do community service, mandatory military service... you can specify).**\n\nthx",
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      "parent_author": "cnacws",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t155819660z",
      "author": "tarazkp",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "The analogy was inappropriate considering the context of the article. \n\n- My first question is, why do you make so many assumptions?\n- Next, do you expect voluntarism to just be a switch in society with an overnight shift in personal and cultural philosophies?\n- Do you make the assumption that the current 1% have managed to amass their wealth without doing any harm?\n- Does 'no harm' mean as long as they didn't break any laws?\n- The laws made by the same people who force an obligatory tax?\n\nThere are many ways to do harm in this world yet most only think something is harmful when it affects *their* group. Many corporations do harm all over the world as they crush supply chains and ptimise their workforces in order to squeeze a little more profit out. As long as it is in another country it is okay? Voluntarism only works when those who benefit from the community put into the community and the 1% have definitely benefited from the community, tax systems and the legal systems define by the state, no matter how one looks at it. \n\nIt is good that you edited your first comment considering on your profile you have claimed 'non-aggressive communication with statists'. Perhaps I am not a statist though.",
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T16:45:54",
  "op": [
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      "parent_author": "hayleyuk",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t163042783z",
      "author": "cnacws",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "> So what you are saying is the rich should stay rich and the poor should get poorer until they are so poor thru are homeless, and all because you believe it harms the rich to pay more taxes\n\nThose are related questions... questions that I had also... but I wanted to know if you oppose or endorse the idea of using force against peaceful people and I'd like to know if you let the victim define what harm means.\n\nI'll try to address your question: I can look at times and places and see where I would probably have acted out.  Example: Ho Chi Minh tried to address great inequality that originally stemmed from colonialism and foreign invasions in which perhaps [a million people starved](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Famine_of_1945) while paying tax in the form of rice to either foreigners or suck-ups catering to foreigners.  That sounds mighty bad to me.  I am not unsympathetic to you concerns.\n\nI live in USA, and the situation for me (and for you) does not compare to the situation of the Vietnamese people from 1940s-1960s.   Right now, in my context, I would prefer for people to engage in voluntary interactions.  If you don't like your wages, find a new job, work more hours, spend less, get a roommate to split bills, learn some skills, start your own small business.  I have done all the above rather than using force against others to take their money.\n\nDo you agree:\n1. Ethical people avoid initiating harm against peaceful people.\n2. The person who gets to define the harm is the intended victim (in this case, the 1% who are going to be forced to pay for the income of the other 99%... or some variation of that math).",
      "json_metadata": "{\"tags\":[\"politics\"],\"links\":[\"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_Famine_of_1945\"],\"app\":\"steemit/0.1\"}"
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T16:30:48",
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      "parent_author": "cnacws",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t155819660z",
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      "title": "",
      "body": "So what you are saying is the rich should stay rich and the poor should get poorer until they are so poor thru are homeless, and all because you believe it harms the rich to pay more taxes",
      "json_metadata": "{\"tags\":[\"politics\"],\"app\":\"steemit/0.1\"}"
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      "parent_author": "tarazkp",
      "parent_permlink": "ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t150951986z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -379,17 +379,30 @@\n ously.  \n-I\n+For example, i\n f somebo\n@@ -518,26 +518,20 @@\n ion.\n-  Th\n+%0A%0AOn\n e way t\n-hat you\n+o\n  see\n@@ -552,23 +552,17 @@\n arm is t\n-hat you\n+o\n  communi\n@@ -720,172 +720,4 @@\n !!!!\n-  If the girl does not want to be F!@# in the ass, and you do it anyway, there is harm, no matter what you tell yourself.   Which role are you playing in that scenario?\n",
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    {
      "parent_author": "tarazkp",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t154223980z",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t155819660z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -1,15 +1,15 @@\n Maybe \n-b\n+m\n y analog\n",
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T15:58:18",
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      "parent_author": "tarazkp",
      "parent_permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t154223980z",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-tarazkp-re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t155819660z",
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      "body": "Maybe by analogy was a distraction.\n\nI was addressing your claim that nobody suffers from implementing a universal basic income.  If everybody volunteers to pay into the system, that is fine, but every UBI plan that I know of is based on a tax.\n\n* Taxes are involuntary.\n* To see if somebody is harmed by a tax, you could ask them.  \n* If they volunteer to put money into the system to pay the UBI of 20 people, then GREAT!\n* If the person does not volunteer, then you would be harming the person by forcibly taking the money in the form of a tax.\n\nI know that you don't see taking money from \"rich people\" as harm... my point was to see if you believe in a couple ideas:\n1. Ethical people avoid initiating harm against peaceful people.\n2. The person who gets to define the harm is the intended victim (in this case, the 1% who are going to be forced to pay for the income of the other 99%... or some variation of that math).\n\nDo you agree with my two, numbered statements above? Y/N?\n\nthx",
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      "permlink": "re-cnacws-re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t154223980z",
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      "body": "I have no idea what you are talking about as it is so far unrelated from the topic, at least the way you have presented it.",
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T15:09:51",
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      "parent_author": "tarazkp",
      "parent_permlink": "ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-tarazkp-ubi-unemployed-funding-the-1-20180323t150951986z",
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      "body": "> So, who suffers? Well, no one really\n\nYou suffer because you are selling your commitment to the most basic principle that underlies any system of ethics: you ignore the principle of not harming peaceful people.\n\nI know it is tempting to get free money and tell yourself that nobody is harmed... but I don't think you are attempting to answer the question of \"who suffers\" seriously.  If somebody rapes a girl and then says that there really wasn't any harm because he wore a condom, that is self-deception.  The way that you see if there is harm is that you communicate with the intended victim BEFORE you do something against that person's will to see if the person voluntarily engages in some kind of deal with you!!!!  If the girl does not want to be F!@# in the ass, and you do it anyway, there is harm, no matter what you tell yourself.   Which role are you playing in that scenario?",
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  "op": [
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      "curator": "cnacws",
      "reward": "2.040624 VESTS",
      "comment_author": "consciousness",
      "comment_permlink": "mind-controlling-consciousness"
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      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-steemian007-warming-earth-20180323t070747510z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "Giant UpVote for your conclusion:\n\n> . Everyone need to begin making changes from themselves first before pointing finger at others .",
      "json_metadata": "{\"tags\":[\"earth\"],\"app\":\"steemit/0.1\"}"
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  "op": [
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    {
      "parent_author": "toddfoster",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tftproject-youtube-announces-authoritarian-ban-on-gun-videos-so-users-turn-to-steemit-pornhub-20180322t223356636z",
      "author": "cnacws",
      "permlink": "re-toddfoster-re-tftproject-youtube-announces-authoritarian-ban-on-gun-videos-so-users-turn-to-steemit-pornhub-20180323t070234716z",
      "title": "",
      "body": "@@ -71,16 +71,177 @@\n onse is.\n+  You can talk about Steemit, but the truth is that kids today live on YouTube, and they will not have a chance to be exposed to ideas that YouTube doesn't like.\n %0A%0AThe ru\n@@ -606,115 +606,4 @@\n 45).\n-%0A%0AKids today live on YouTube, and they will not have a chance to be exposed to ideas that YouTube doesn't like.\n",
      "json_metadata": "{\"tags\":[\"steemit\"],\"links\":[\"https://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45\"],\"app\":\"steemit/0.1\"}"
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  "timestamp": "2018-03-23T07:02:36",
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      "parent_author": "toddfoster",
      "parent_permlink": "re-tftproject-youtube-announces-authoritarian-ban-on-gun-videos-so-users-turn-to-steemit-pornhub-20180322t223356636z",
      "author": "cnacws",
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      "body": "Yes.  I see this as a big problem, but I'm not sure what the best response is.\n\nThe rule is vague about how YouTube will determine if someone \"intends to sell\" a firearm.  If you did some gun reviews 5 years ago and linked to the manufacturer's web site, you can lose your entire channel!!  This will have the result of killing the gun culture.    An example channel that is likely to disappear is [hickok45](https://www.youtube.com/user/hickok45).\n\nKids today live on YouTube, and they will not have a chance to be exposed to ideas that YouTube doesn't like.",
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